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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Irish Water charges and conservation grant

Summary

Opposition leaders challenge Irish Water’s low collection rate and the €100 conservation grant for non-payers, arguing the charges have failed and should be abolished. The Taoiseach defends the modest contribution, the grant and Irish Water’s role in financing long-term water and wastewater investment, while citing teething problems and expected future payments.

Irish Water has only collected 46% of expected revenue despite bills falling due in the past two months. Only 43% of the expected customer base of 1.5 million people have paid up. If that rate of payment continues, the Government will take in approximately €120 million, while it will have paid out approximately €130 million. The water conservation grant will amount to €25 million and another €25 million will be due in interest repayments on the loans taken out to pay for the installation of water meters. On that basis, the Government will lose at least €35 million in revenue as a result of the imposition of the tax. It is probably the first Government in history to lose money having introduced a tax. That is extraordinary.

In addition, the capacity of Irish Water to pass the EUROSTAT test will be in severe jeopardy, notwithstanding the fact that the Government has cooked the books by shifting approximately €60 million of Irish Water's spending onto the local government fund. Registration confirms that one will get the €100 conservation grant. It was confirmed this morning by Irish Water that no proof of payment of one's bill is required. Essentially, if one does not pay one's bill, one will be rewarded with a €100 conservation grant.

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One could not make it up.

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One will get paid for not paying one's water bill.

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Will you take it Mattie or will you send it back?

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That is extraordinary. Why would one pay it at all if that is the case?

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It is kindergarten stuff.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Deputy Mattie McGrath should stay quiet and let Deputy Martin put his question.

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Why would one pay the water charge if one gets the €100 in any event? Those who have paid must be looking askance at the situation having learned of it this morning. Even if one is not an Irish Water customer, one will get the €100. If one does not pay one's bill, one will get the €100. Could the Taoiseach explain the reason a person would get a €100 conservation grant if he or she does not even pay his or her water charges bill? Does the Taoiseach accept that the policy has failed? The figures reveal that. After 14 U-turns on this entire saga, it is time to call a halt and to abolish the charges and this whole operation and edifice. It is a moment of high farce that the Government has now landed us in and it is time to go back to the drawing board and start afresh.

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You landed us in it.

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Fix the leaks.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thought Deputy Martin might raise Irish Water today. I very much thank the 675,000 households who have paid their Irish Water bill. That represents approximately 2 million people in the country. Deputy Martin is still taking the same line as he always did, namely, to leave things as they were within an official system, both for water and for wastewater. The very fact that Irish Water has been set up, admittedly with challenges, allows for the entity to be able to borrow and to invest-----

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At what rate?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----to fix all the problems that exist and to provide a proper water system and wastewater system for this country for the next 20 to 50 years. Deputy Martin does not seem to have a connection with a particular section of Irish people. They are people who have paid for their water for the past 50 years in group water schemes all over the country, who were very glad to get it. Many schemes were inferior and they are now in a position to be able to rectify them and update them.

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The Government is spending less.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

They too will get their €100 incentive from the Department of Social Protection once they register as users. Deputy Martin does not seem to recognise that at all.

I have listened to many left wing people talk about the issue recently. It is the same old story. They want to pay for nothing, make no contribution, and expect someone else to do it for them.

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Is that you, Mattie?

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That is not true. That is a distortion.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Government has been very clear about this. The charge is €3 per week or €1.15 per week. That is a very modest and fair contribution.

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Could the Taoiseach rewind and answer the question?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Martin's party left this country in an unprecedented mess.

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How about the question the Taoiseach was asked?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

He is the last person who should come in here and talk about the situation.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would Members please stay quiet?

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Am I the last person?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

It is not Deputy Cowen's question.

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The Taoiseach is directing his answer at me now.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

He might be leader some day but in the meantime he should allow Deputy Martin to lead.

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We want the Taoiseach to answer the question he was asked.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I do not accept Deputy Martin's assertion.

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It is obvious.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would Deputy Mattie McGrath ever stay quiet?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

This is the start of a billing process. People have received their first bills. They are entitled to factor that into the budgetary strategy for their households. The Government did not increase income tax in the way Deputy Martin wants to do now. Unlike other utilities, no reminders have yet issued to households but that will happen. Irish Water is still developing its customer database. People might be included in the database who are being billed unnecessarily.

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Yes, a lot of people have been.

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Including deceased people.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As Deputy Martin is well aware, there are always teething problems. Approximately 182,000 properties in Irish Water's database are holiday homes and vacant dwellings. It is likely that some people are as yet unaware of their liability. I expect that people will continue to contribute.

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One cannot pay from the grave.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Cowen is aware that in Castlerea and south Roscommon, 11,300 people had boil water notices lifted from their households in the past two weeks.

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That would have happened anyway.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The people of Castlerea had been operating under a boil water notice since November 2009. Irish Water was set up to be able to borrow independently and invest in fixing and rectifying problems due to the situation in Castlerea and in other places around the country.

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At a higher rate.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The point made by Deputy Martin on EUROSTAT is a matter for EUROSTAT, which is completely independent in the way it does its analysis of the situation in so far as Irish Water is concerned and it will make its decision in its own good time.

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I asked the Taoiseach a simple question and as usual he did everything but answer it. Could he explain why a person would get a €100 conservation grant even if that person does not pay his or her water bill?

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To conserve water.

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It is a very simple question. It is a question that is connected to people who pay because they are wondering why one would bother paying under the regime the Government has established.

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Why did they pay?

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Under that regime, one gets €100 if one does not bother paying one's bill. The bottom line is that given the rate of compliance, as of now the Government is losing money as a result of the introduction of the water charge. That is a fact. The Government has been forced into U-turn after U-turn.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Could Deputy Martin ask a question please?

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The net result is that following the introduction of the water tax, at the end of the year the Government will be down by between €35 million and €50 million. It is some feat to introduce a tax and lose money as a result of it. Only stubbornness and pig-headedness is driving the Government on in terms of trying to create the impression that all is well, but if the Taoiseach wants to pretend that all is well, he can do so.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Deputy Martin is over time. Would he please adhere to the Chair?

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I will not try to convince the Taoiseach that the situation is one of high farce right now in terms of how people look at the edifice that has been created and the extraordinarily farcical situation whereby if someone does not pay his or her bill, he or she will get a conservation grant.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy has made his point.

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One could not make it up, in terms of administration or operating any taxation system.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy fails to recognise that the sum of €100 is not just an incentive for people to contribute but also a conservation grant.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy's philosophy has nothing to do with conservation. When billions of euro were sloshing around in the economy, Fianna Fáil had no concept of the conservation of money in the interests of the people.

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That is all the Taoiseach can say.

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The Taoiseach was promising 4.5% growth in 2007. He, too, has questions to answer.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Fianna Fáil squandered the livelihoods, careers, opportunities and ambitions of thousands of people, some of whom are now in America, Australia, Britain and elsewhere. Deputy Micheál Martin and his party, with a philosophy under which there was no attempt at conservation, are directly responsible. I expect people to continue to contribute to building an entity to deal with the many problems we have with the quality of water, the extent of wastewater going into lakes, rivers and seas, resulting in the loss of blue flags, and issues affecting the hospitality sector.

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Deputy Barry Cowen is sighing. He does not believe the Taoiseach.

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He should quit while he is ahead.

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The Government has invested less money during the past three years than was invested during the previous three.

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The red flag is up on the Government.

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The Government has spent €780 million.

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Where is the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is why Irish Water was established. Deputy Micheál Martin knows that for many years the average investment has been approximately €300 million. It should be €600 million at least. That is why Irish Water was established. Fianna Fáil's philosophy was to approve water charges which were much higher than those the Government has introduced. It then abandoned ship when others said they would be populist about it.

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The Government is spending less and wasting money.

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Where is fiscal competency now?

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The party is over.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

While there are challenges, I expect the people to see the benefit of having an entity such as Irish Water and contribute to it. The charges are €1.15 and €3 per week and the sum of €100 to which the Deputy referred is a conservation grant for people who register online.

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Will the Taoiseach answer the question he was asked?

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Tell it to the people.

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He will quit when he is behind.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will everyone stay quiet for one minute, settle down and let Deputy Mary Lou McDonald make her point? We all want to hear.

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I am sure they do.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputies must be wound up before they come in. Do they wind themselves up or what?

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The Taoiseach does it for us.

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There is something in the water.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

It is the same little group. It must be the area in which they sit. They should change places.

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The air conditioning might be causing it.

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In a major blow to the Government’s misguided water charges policy, Irish Water has finally revealed that it managed to collect from only 43% of households who had been targeted to pay. This is despite the extraordinary lengths to which the Government has gone to force them to pay. In the face of widespread rejection of the water tax, the Government had resorted to coercion, or so it thought. This week it is ramming through legislation to pickpocket the incomes of already hard-pressed citizens to prop up the discredited Irish Water quango. Although the Taoiseach had hoped it would frighten a significant number of people to pay the bills they had received, he was wrong - it did not happen. This represents more than a challenge to him, his Government and Irish Water. He has been told in no uncertain terms that his water tax is going nowhere. He has been told that families across the State are not being cowed by threats from the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, or the Taoiseach's bribes.

Who are the 57% who have not paid? They are not people who, as the Taoiseach asserts, do not want to pay for anything, an insult he regularly levels at families.

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The Deputy paid.

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In my experience, they are a mixture of people who will not pay on principle because they already pay through general taxation; they believe water is a human right and oppose the privatisation of such a vital service. As I have explained to the Taoiseach many times, there are many families who cannot pay, who do not have the €3 or €1 per week about which he is so glib. They do not have it because they have been screwed by the Government in the past four years and have nothing left to give.

The Taoiseach thought he had got away with it. He thought the cosmetic changes the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, had introduced last year would thwart the anti-water charges campaign, but he was wrong. The popular citizens' campaign against this unjust tax has not gone away. If anything, it has grown in strength and support. Last week the trade unions reaffirmed their strong opposition to water charges. Did the Taoiseach hear? The right to water campaign will stage another major public demonstration on 29 August. I hope Fianna Fáil will be there, having had a conversion to an anti-water charges campaign.

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Will the Taoiseach do something refreshing and out of character? Will he end the sorry saga that is Irish Water? Will he, finally, acknowledge that his Government's efforts to bribe, coerce and intimidate families into complying with his water tax have failed? Will he return to the drawing board and abolish these charges?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Sometimes the Deputy amuses me, when she is clearly in competition with other Opposition parties to generate publicity for her party. She is a member of a party which proclaimed that all of its members were legislators and that they would pay the water contributions. Then, when she was caught out by Deputy Paul Murphy, further out on the left wing, she decided it would be a populist measure to oppose water charges.

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The soldiers of destiny.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

She was followed by the Soldiers of Destiny who said they favoured water charges but thought they should be abolished.

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We oppose the mess the Government created.

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The only people who can be trusted are the Independents.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The consequence would be increased income tax. Yesterday I gave Deputy Mary Lou McDonald full marks for her mathematics when she was dividing the time allocated for the amendments to a particular Bill. Irish Water has received 46% of expected revenue, not 43%.

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Some 43% of people paid.

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The Taoiseach had three weeks to get ready and is still getting it wrong.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Again, I thank the 675,000 householders who have made their contributions. Given that a number of people have received bills only in the very recent past, obviously, we expect more people to contribute to what is a very important entity. We have been very clear about the charges and I do not say this glibly, as the Deputy remarked. The charge is €1.15 or €3 per week, which is a very modest contribution, fixed until 2019. People know exactly where we are headed, namely, towards the provision of clean water and proper wastewater treatment facilities around the country. The Government has not increased income taxes, as Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin want to do.

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The Government has introduced approximately 40 new taxes during the past three years, including property tax and water tax. The Taoiseach should read George Orwell again. He is the man for the Government.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I was interested in Deputy Mary Lou McDonald’s comment on this issue on 2 February when she was asked how Sinn Féin would pay for water services and facilities around the country. Her answer was very clear. She said, "We would be looking at all forms of formula that would achieve that." I am not sure what it means.

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It sounds like something the Taoiseach would say.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As far as the Government is concerned, Irish Water has received 46% of its expected revenue from 675,000 households, representing 2 million people. The contributions are very fair. The Government has been clear that water will not be cut off, that people will not be sent to prison, that the contribution is very modest and that it is for a very good cause for all the people and the country for the next 30 to 50 years. I hope and expect more people to continue to pay their bills, register and contribute to a fundamentally important entity for the future.

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I hate to break it to the Taoiseach but he is going to be sorely disappointed if that is his sincere hope. He has comprehensively failed to win the support of the people for the introduction of this charge. What he has left them with is a quango of enormous proportions, controversies around consultancy fees and so on, meters in the ground that cost a fortune and which are not being used. There is lead piping hither, thither and yon, which represents a threat to people’s health.

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What would Sinn Féin do? Its solution is to ignore it.

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He has done this against a backdrop-----

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Sinn Féin would know about lead in piping.

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-----of endless austerity.

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Come on lads and get the lead out.

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The Taoiseach and his cronies in government have-----

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

I would not go there.

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Sinn Féin knows all about that.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will Members stay quiet?

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-----stuck their hands in the pockets of working people.

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Sinn Féin would know about lead in piping.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I expect more from Ministers and for them to lead by example. It is a hard enough job to sit here and keep order. When I have Ministers heckling, however, it is a big problem.

Will you please finish your point, Deputy McDonald? Your time is up.

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Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.

The Government’s strategy has been to buy off one half of the population with its €100 water conservation grant - wink, wink - and then intimidate the other half with a threat of attachment orders, court proceedings and sticking its hands into their pensions, welfare and wages. Newsflash for the Taoiseach: none of that has worked.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Newsflash for you, Deputy. Your time is up.

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Up to 57% of those due to pay have not paid and will not pay. More of them cannot pay.

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How does the Deputy know?

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It is time for the Taoiseach to have a moment of clarity, even vision, and see the wood from the trees. He must understand that this charge is going nowhere. In the public interest, what the Taoiseach needs to do is to scrap it, not to make smart or condescending comments about my mathematics. His own mathematics are not too hot. Those with great mathematical skills are lone parents, however.

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What about Gerry?

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The lone parents the Taoiseach has ripped off and who now he glibly claims can find the €3 which they do not have.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Deputy, will you please resume your seat?

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He must abolish the charge.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I think I heard Deputy McDonald say recently that it would have been an interesting experiment for Ireland to have followed Syriza’s example in Greece. Am I correct? This is where she wants to place our country and our people, yet she comes in here talking about pensioners and ordinary people.

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The Government put the boot into them.

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The interesting thing would have been to see the Taoiseach negotiate. We have yet to see that.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy’s philosophy is to allow what has happened in Greece to happen here.

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It is your German pals in the Bundestag that have done that.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy McDonald has made her point about looking at all the formulae. Let me repeat again. The reason Irish Water has been set up is to provide proper and quality water facilities for our people and proper wastewater treatment plants-----

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And for bonuses.

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It has played a blinder so far.

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It is to sell it off.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is an outrageous comment, Deputy Ellis.

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That is what we are paying for. It is privatisation.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Up to 675,000 households have registered and paid their contributions. That represents 2 million people.

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What about the 2 million who have not?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Many people have only received their bills in the recent past. I expect they will contribute and pay their bills, as many more will in the future.

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They are all past their sell-by date.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The use of meters is to determine the extent of water use. Second, they will be able to identify where they are completely inadequate facilities, either leaks or the consequences of lead pipes into houses.

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There is no scientific basis for that.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

There is.

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There is not. The Deputy should talk to the senior officials in Irish Water.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Please.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Whether Deputy McDonald likes it or does not want to recognise it, water conservation is a very important part of what we have to do.

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Wait until they come after your own.

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The Taoiseach should toddle over to the audio-visual room at 3 p.m.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

For years, taxpayers have been paying for inadequate facilities with 50% of water supplies leaking into the ground. However, Sinn Féin does not want to recognise that either. The extent of investment for years to come will be of a nature that will fix these leaks and inadequate facilities while providing proper water services for town, country, business, industry and consumer. Again, I thank those 675,000 householders who have contributed.

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It is a terrific success. Will the Taoiseach pull the other one?

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The Taoiseach should take this to Carnegie Hall.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I expect this to continue and more will contribute to a modest charge. It is only €1.15 and €3 per week.

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It might be a modest charge for the Taoiseach.

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Modest if you have it.

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