Northern Ireland paramilitary activity and peace talks
Deputies Micheál Martin and Gerry Adams questioned the Taoiseach about reports that the IRA Army Council remains active, alleged links to criminality, and the murder of Kevin McGuigan. The Taoiseach said the reports must be addressed through the ongoing talks, supported stronger cross-Border action, defended natural justice in CAB cases, and agreed to maintain engagement with the British Prime Minister to support the Good Friday institutions.
The report on paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland comes to a very stark conclusion that the IRA army council still exists and the report endorses PSNI Chief Constable George Hamilton's assessment that the IRA exists, that some of its members were implicated in the murder of Kevin McGuigan and that the Provisional IRA, PIRA, members believe the Provisional IRA army council oversees both PIRA and Sinn Féin with an overarching strategy. The fundamental question for our republic that we must answer and which the report does not ask is the threat to democracy from an organisation that is involved with politics but which retains a military structure, with an active intelligence gathering department and access to weaponry. Those fundamental questions leap from this report, no matter how uncomfortable and unpalatable they may be, and we need to respond to them. We need full honesty and transparency in that regard.
Additionally, the report indicates that individual PIRA members remain involved with criminal activity, such as large-scale smuggling, and there have been isolated incidents of violence, including murders. We know from the report of the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána that the Criminal Assets Bureau, since its establishment in 1996, has raised approximately €28 million from the proceeds of crimes, actions and tax assessment with respect to over 50 individuals with connections or associations with the Provisional IRA in the past. Other investigations are proceeding.
I put the fundamental question to the Taoiseach yesterday. This illustrates the absolute need for the British and Irish Governments to establish a strong, well-resourced joint agency to tackle, once and for all, the organised crime being undertaken by paramilitaries. In the context of the Provisional IRA and its members, we must ask whether people are absolutely certain that any of the proceeds from the organised crime being committed by alleged individual provo republicans is not finding its way to the political project. I do not say that lightly.
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That is shameful. The Deputy is a gurrier, a political gurrier.
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I have been labelled certain things now by people who do not like what I am saying.
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I refer the Taoiseach to the proceeds of the Northern Bank robbery. I indicate to the Members on my right to check court records from 2010, which show that three members were prosecuted and found guilty of handling proceeds from the Northern Bank robbery. One was an unsuccessful candidate for Sinn Féin and the other was a fund-raiser for the party. The third member in the courts pleaded guilty and described himself as a republican and Sinn Féin member. My point is there is form in this respect. People may not like what I am saying but it happened.
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We cannot turn a blind eye to this. There is a fundamental question. I have described this as a "twilight zone", with people being individuals one day and "good republicans" the next day. It is very difficult for people in our position to work out which is which.
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I thank Deputy Martin for his question. I remind him of what I said at Cambridge some time ago about this matter that 21 years after the IRA ceasefire, it is past time that it should have any capacity for any threat.
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Statements to the effect that the IRA has gone away or left the stage are simply not credible. The reports speak for themselves. I spoke with British Prime Minister, David Cameron, last evening about this. The return of the DUP and First Minister Robinson to the talks currently under way and including the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party is a positive sign, given the two reports from the PSNI and the Garda.
I pointed out yesterday that the Criminal Assets Bureau had brought 99 individuals before the Special Criminal Court and, as the Deputy noted, €28 million was confiscated as a result. The impact of the report presented by the three members yesterday, to the effect that the members of the Provisional IRA believe that an army council now controls the Sinn Féin Party, both in political and electioneering terms, is certainly a matter that must be responded to by the president of Sinn Féin. I have said to Deputy Adams on many occasions that I have never accepted that he was not a member of the IRA over those years or a member of the army council. He has denied that on umpteen occasions.
Suffice it to say that the Deputy's question is about a particularly well-resourced cross-Border unit-----
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-----involving both governments, dealing with the Garda and PSNI. I am not opposed to this and the suggestion is valid. I pointed out yesterday that we have two cross-Border task forces currently that are proving to be very successful, both in tackling diesel and fuel laundering and tobacco smuggling. I gave the evidence of this. I suggest that this is part of the process of talks now under way and it is partly the reason talks are under way. There is no place for the kind of activity referred to in the PSNI report in this society and democracy and on this island. The Garda Commissioner has pointed out that there will be no truck with this kind of carry-on from the remnants or divergent groups of the Provisional IRA, which has poisoned so many people in society over the past 35 or 40 years.
I accept that the Deputy's question is valid, given that operations are currently ongoing with the two task forces operating across the Border to deal with drug and tobacco smuggling, fuel laundering and so on. If emerging from the process there is acceptance that there should be a further development in having an agreed joint cross-Border unit or agency, I would not be opposed to it. I would like that to be considered in the talks, as if it comes from that, it would have an enhanced status.
I am happy to report to the House that the work of the two joint task forces is currently very successful. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, is representing us at the talks. If representatives of the people feel it would be appropriate for both governments to have a different agency, well resourced with all the facilities to deal with this once and for all, I would have an open mind on it and be supportive if it came from there.
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I appreciate the Taoiseach's positive response to the basic question I have asked, and I am obviously quite prepared for the talks to consider that and for a proposal of that kind to emanate from the talks process. The peace process belongs to us all. It does not belong to one political party, as has been asserted from time to time. We have all invested heavily in the peace process, none more so than the people of Ireland themselves, who voted on an all-island basis for it, but no one expected that 17 years after the Good Friday Agreement we would essentially have an organisation whose strategy is overseen by an army council, according to this report, and that retains access to weaponry and has a military structure and an active intelligence-gathering department. That is what we are up against in the Republic.
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"They haven't gone away, you know."
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That is what we are up against in the Republic. The situation has always been one of denial, denial, attack, attack. I have just been called a gurrier by Deputy Mac Lochlainn.
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That is because he is. He is the prime gurrier in these Houses.
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That is the type of intimidation-----
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-----that people engage in when they are challenged, and remember-----
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Deputy Martin is more hardline than MI5 and the DUP. He is worse than the DUP.
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If I could put it to the Taoiseach, would he not agree-----
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Fianna Fáil is the republican party.
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It is the Chief Constable's assertion, which has been endorsed by this report, that Provisional IRA members were implicated in the murder of Kevin McGuigan, which has created this crisis in the peace process.
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It was not anything I have said or anything anybody else has said.
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The final question I want to put to the Taoiseach is about the 50 individual members of the IRA who have had tax assessments against them arising out of criminal proceeds and so on. I understand the need for in camera rules in terms of tax and so on. However, given the extraordinary nature of this issue and its importance for both jurisdictions-----
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-----is there a need to review, in this specific context, how the in camera procedure is being used to protect or hide the identities of many of these individuals whom CAB has assessed as having major issues regarding the proceeds of crime and who are making tax settlements with CAB, but under cover and in a way that is not transparent, so we do not get a picture-----
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Fianna Fáil set up the legislation.
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We do not get a complete picture of what is actually happening.
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There is always the issue of natural justice. In respect of the CAB, which has proven to be very successful in following the money trail over the years, I am quite sure Deputy Martin is not implying that because an individual might be named, they might be guilty. The issue here, as I am sure he will appreciate, is probably worthy of consideration, but CAB has proven to be extraordinarily successful in following the money trail.
I have differences of opinion with Deputy Martin on many matters, but I have never descended to the level of what he has just been called from the far side.
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-----we do not have to descend to that level. It is fair to say that the culture of intimidation and fear-----
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It is worth saying that talks are going on. The First Minister is back in there, the Ministers are reconstituted and the UUP and all parties are engaged as we speak, and that is the place where these things have to happen. There are questions arising from the Northern report, which states that based on intelligence the provisional army council is deemed to be overseeing both the Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin. This is based on reports from Provisional IRA members. It is an issue that needs to be addressed by the Sinn Féin president.
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Very good. MI5 would love that.
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Whatever way we are here - Deputy Martin as leader of his party, I as leader of mine, and the Tánaiste as leader of the Labour Party - we are not subject to direction from any army council.
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They are only subject to bankers and developers.
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I hope those at the talks will discuss these matters and both reports in a rational way and that the talks can conclude reasonably quickly.
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For the record, Sinn Féin has advocated the type of cross-Border grouping approach that is now being proposed, and we very much support that. For the last few years, the political institutions in the North have been on the verge of collapse. Let us remember that the heart of the current contrived crisis is the murder of two men, Jock Davison and Kevin McGuigan. The Fianna Fáil leader's contribution to this crisis was an idiotic call for the suspension of the political institutions.
The basis of the very welcome recommencement of the talks today is the publication of a report by the British and another by the Garda Commissioner. Some elements of these reports have been seized upon by opponents of Sinn Féin, not least the Taoiseach and the leader of Fianna Fáil. I want to deal with two aspects of this. One is that Sinn Féin is totally and absolutely opposed to criminality of all kinds, and we stand with communities across this island and with the police services against criminality. We have paid a price for that: my home has regularly been targeted with bomb alerts, and I and other Sinn Féin representatives are under active death threats. That is a matter of fact. We have had property attacks. We have had one young man, Frank McCabe junior, blinded in one eye because of our party's and his family's stand against criminality.
This is not an academic exercise for us and it is not electorally driven point-scoring. We put our lives on the line against those who are engaging, in the name of republicanism and otherwise, in criminality. Second, like all other Members, Sinn Féin Members are accountable to one grouping - that is, the electorate. They are the people who give us our mandate. Our leadership is the Ard Chomhairle. It is elected democratically annually at our Ard-Fheis.
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We are not accountable to any other group or organisation. The business of making peace is challenging and the business of societal change is challenging, but that is our priority as a party, consistently and constantly, alongside our effort to build genuine republican alternatives to austerity and building support for a united Ireland. Led by Martin McGuinness, we will engage positively in these talks. We will deal with all issues, including those cited by the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil leader, to build a real future-----
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What I am asking the Taoiseach, as I have done many times, is whether he will prioritise his engagement with the British Prime Minister with the objective of stabilising and sustaining the political institutions set up under the Good Friday Agreement.
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The answer to that question is yes, of course, at every opportunity. I spoke to him last night about this matter. I accept that Deputy Adams has been the target of intimidation and attempted assault and I have condemned that unreservedly. I expect that the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, will deal with questions in respect of the report. There are matters there that need to be dealt with and the talks that are currently going on are the forum for that. All the representatives are there now.
Peace is always challenging. That is why this Government has made a point of making the resources and facilities available to the Garda to do its job. We had the murders of Adrian Donohoe and Tony Golden. The Government decided quite some time ago to reopen the Garda training college in Templemore. We have 600 recruits coming through that next year. Government has put up €27 million or €30 million for new vehicles, with more to follow. Today the Minister for Justice and Equality is announcing an extensive Garda programme in terms of proper facilities, buildings and infrastructure for the Garda to do its job. The Commissioner has made changes in terms of extra personnel in the Border area following the murder of Garda Golden.
I take the evidence of CAB and the two joint task forces which have been working very effectively over the past number of years on the extent of fuel laundering, cigarette smuggling and other acts of criminality, and I am glad to hear Deputy Adams say that he supports these efforts completely. As I said to Deputy Martin, if it comes from these talks that there is a request, agreement or proposal that there be a revamped or different joint agency resourced and financed by both Governments to deal with criminality in all its forms, I will have an open mind on that.
Deputy Adams's party has come under some scrutiny in respect of claims of illegality and illegal activity either in respect of safe houses and sexual abuse or property-based programmes indicating access to extraordinary levels of finance. Deputy Adams is his party's president and that is for him to answer.
In that sense, the answer to Deputy Adams's question is "Yes". I am happy to engage with the British Government and with the Prime Minister directly as often as needs be in respect of the issues that need to be sorted out here.
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With respect, a 15-minute phone call every so often with the British Prime Minister is not enough. I have said to the Taoiseach that it needs a consistent strategic involvement on an ongoing basis. I deplore, as I have here and in the constituency, the killings of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe and Garda Tony Golden - one could not do otherwise - but let us not blame republicans for the failure of the State to tackle the type of crime that is being visited in urban and rural areas, not least in the Border counties. My constituency has been starved of gardaí. Garda numbers have been cut by this Government and I welcome the fact that that has to some degree been rectified.
I repeat the point that the Sinn Féin Party, and no other organisation, is the only party which is engaged in republican activism and in the republican struggle-----
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-----and we are wedded to peaceful and democratic means. By the way, it was us who forged out a peaceful and democratic way to achieve republican and democratic objectives.
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How many people were killed in the meantime?
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I am finishing, a Cheann Comhairle. All parties have a responsibility to tackle criminality and I will not take weasel words from the Taoiseach stating he welcomes that I am against criminality.
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The Taoiseach knows I am against criminality. He knows this party is against criminality. He knows that. What we need to do is to-----
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-----ensure that those who commit crimes against the community or against the state, irrespective of whatever part of the island it happens in, are brought before the courts and let the courts, not this Dáil Chamber, make their judgment on all of this.
There are pressing issues, such as Tory cuts. Did the Taoiseach raise that with the British Prime Minister?
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There are the attacks on working families and on welfare and dealing with the legacy of the past. The very people who produced this report also brought in a veto to stop the families of victims of British terrorism from looking and finding out what happened to their loved ones.
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What about the victims of the IRA terrorism such as the late Mrs. Jean McConville and her family?
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We will work positively with all the political parties and with the two Governments but, as I have asked the Taoiseach on many occasions, will he, as co-equal guarantor of the Good Friday and other agreements, engage with the British Prime Minister with the required and constant focus and consistency?
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I will talk to the British Prime Minister as often as is necessary. I have said to him, and we both agreed, that responsibility is devolved to the elected representatives of Northern Ireland. That was their request and this is what has been granted. This is their responsibility. These talks have dragged on since after Christmas of last year and they have had difficulties, up and down, in respect of welfare reform and other issues. Now we have the talks arising from the comments of the PSNI Chief Constable, that report and the report from the Garda Commissioner.
Is Mr. Paudie McGahon wrong? Is Maíria Cahill wrong? When Deputy Adams says that anybody out there who has information about these matters should bring them to the notice of the Garda or the PSNI, he, as the president of his party, knows many of the people who live in the Border area. It is a close-knit community. It is so close-----
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Is the Taoiseach going to demonise the whole community?
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Is the Taoiseach going to look for votes off those people-----
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The Taoiseach does not know the communities.
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-----the message is out: "If you speak out, we will deal with you." When Deputy Adams states his party is against criminality in all its forms, there are a range of issues there that he needs to deal with as president of his party, and I hope he does.
I hope that the talks in Belfast today will bear fruit. As I said, if there is a request for a different form of joint force or joint action group to deal with cross-Border criminality in all its forms, I will not be opposed to it. I would like to see that it would come from the representatives of all the people, North and South, who are now involved in those discussions.