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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Wind energy guidelines and turbine setbacks

Summary

Deputy Robert Troy presses for long-delayed national wind energy guidelines, including rules on noise, shadow flicker, turbine setbacks and statutory status, citing community concerns and conflicting ministerial positions. Minister Alex White confirms onshore wind will remain central to energy policy, says interdepartmental work continues and a White Paper is forthcoming, but warns that very large setbacks could eliminate onshore wind development.

In the past week global leaders have attended the Paris summit on climate change. President Obama spoke about the need for this generation to act on climate change policy because if it does not it will be too late for future generations. It is a challenge and an opportunity for all of us to do what is right. It involves everyone in urban and rural areas taking up this challenge.

Wind energy guidelines were published in 2006 and there are many wind turbines around all parts of this country to help Ireland achieve its alternative energy targets. Last year 23% of Ireland’s energy requirement was produced by alternative energy sources. Four fifths of this came from onshore wind.

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Can we have the Deputy's script please?

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As the scale of the turbines increases communities are justifiably concerned about the noise, the shadow flicker, the distance from the turbines-----

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That is Deputy Durkan’s issue.

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-----and the impact this will have on the quality of their lives and communities. New draft revisions to the noise setbacks and the shadow flicker in the 2006 wind energy guidelines were published two years ago this month. These required turbines to have a noise limit of 40 decibels and a setback of 500 m and a complete elimination of shadow flicker. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, started a further consultation process in spring 2014 and received up to 7,500 submissions that made many suggestions on how wind turbines could continue. This consultation delayed the publication of the new guidelines and got the Government through the European and local elections.

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Since then various Ministers have said the new guidelines would be published in 2014. We are now in the last month of 2015 and we have no new guidelines. County development plans are being amended and overturned for taking a proactive stance and introducing local policy on wind energy in the absence of national policy.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

That is a speech.

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That is a Second Stage speech.

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The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, has changed the Renewable Energy Feed in Tariff, REFIT 2 scheme to enable-----

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Can we have the script?

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Does the Deputy have a question?

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The Deputies opposite do not like this.

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The Deputies do not like the change.

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-----existing applicants who are experiencing difficulty in the planning process.

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Will the Deputy give us his script?

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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has said------

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The Deputies should listen to what he is saying. He is trying to put the question.

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The Deputies opposite do not like standing their ground.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Point of order.

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Does the Deputy have a question?

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There are a few windbags over there.

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Will the Deputy circulate his speech?

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

On a point of order, can I ask the Deputy to circulate his speech?

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

There are no points of order during Leaders’ Questions.

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Would Deputy Durkan sit down?

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The speech should be circulated.

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If the Deputies would listen to what I am saying they would not need circulation of anything.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Is the Deputy about to circulate his speech?

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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has said he favours a distance of 600 m to 1.5 km for dwellings.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

That is totally off the point. That is a speech.

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This is a speech.

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The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Coffey, seems very frustrated with the Government’s position because it is a huge issue in the south east.

The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, is on record as disagreeing about long distances from dwellings because he said it would wipe out onshore wind energy in this country.

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Paul Kehoe Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach Fine Gael

This is outrageous.

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How many pages are in this speech?

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It is an election speech.

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The Deputy should put a question.

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Do the Deputies want a question?

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What about the guidelines?

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Is the Government still committed to onshore wind energy as a source of alternative energy? If so can communities across the country expect the publication of the new guidelines about the size of the turbines, the required distance from dwellings as well as the decibel limits?

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The Deputy asked that five minutes ago.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

On a point of order, this is a total abuse of the House. This is a speech being read into the Official Report.

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This has gone on for five minutes.

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Will these guidelines be put on a statutory footing? Have talks between the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government broken down?

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I have never seen such an outrageous abuse.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

This is a speech.

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Can the Minister indicate whether the new distance will be 600 m or will it be up to 1.5 km as the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government recommends?

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Did Donie Cassidy write the speech?

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

This is an abuse of a serious issue.

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Absolutely the worst abuse.

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A Deputy

We still believe in free speech.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I hope the decibels the Deputy is talking about will be lower.

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That was a decisive intervention, Deputy Durkan.

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Alex White Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Labour Party

I recognise the Deputy’s opening remarks about the importance of the discussions and negotiations taking place in Paris at the Conference of Parties, COP 21 conference.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Hear, hear.

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He went totally off then.

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The Minister has stood on the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly.

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He is getting more pages out now.

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The challenge to all of the world-----

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The Minister should support the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly.

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-----not just to the people in this Chamber, rural or urban Ireland, is to reach an agreement to ensure that the planet we live on and the physical environment in which we live, and future generations we hope will live, will be protected from the growing adverse impact of global warming.

I am sorry, however, to note that Deputy Troy quickly abandoned the aspirational remarks in the first 15 seconds or so of his contribution because I regard the necessity for an agreement at COP 21 to be perhaps the most pressing issue facing the world-----

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That is why the Ministers have to agree on the guidelines.

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-----including the people of Tipperary.

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We have agreed on a provisional guideline.

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If Deputy Mattie McGrath would give himself even a minute or two to consider these big issues and try not to continue thinking so small and local all the time and think even for five minutes or so about the broader opportunities and potential we have to bring about change-----

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Poor Deputy Kelly. The Minister will not even talk to him. He will not even talk to my colleague.

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Deputy McGrath should not break the peace.

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I make the point to Members on all sides of the House that they can debate energy policy, for example, for which I have the privilege to be responsible and I will return to the issue of wind energy. They can and should debate these issues, but they cannot reduce them to a backbiting effort to embarrass this or that Minister about this or that set of regulations. There is a legitimate issue.

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Why do they not agree?

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Do not break the peace.

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Two minutes later.

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Will the Deputy just listen for one minute?

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Listen. Members opposite did not give that opportunity to Deputy Robert Troy.

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There is a legitimate issue Members can debate, but can they not think big, even for a few minutes, about the challenges facing us as a people and the planet?

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I could not hear the Deputy. Free speech mar dhea.

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I appeal to Deputy Robert Troy and his party, as well as others, as many Deputies do understand the importance of these issues. On the question of energy wind, I will answer the Deputy bluntly and clearly. I have no doubt that the development and advancement of onshore wind energy projects will be and must be a significant element of Ireland's energy policy and its approach to combating climate change in the years ahead.

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Yes is the answer to that question. I can only speak as Minister, but I will have a White Paper before the Government shortly. It will be published and the Government will set out its view.

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Will the Minister have one outside his house?

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I do not know who will be Minister next year or the year after, but I can state that whosoever he or she may be, he or she will continue the policy begun by the Government, of which Deputies Robert Troy and Barry Cowen were supporters.

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Deputies Patrick O'Donovan and Pat Deering will have two each outside their houses.

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I respect what it did by advancing that policy.

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There is a lot of wind from over there.

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What about the flood barrier in Clontarf?

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It has been sorted.

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Some Members on the other side are a little embarrassed by the attempt of Deputy Robert Troy to reduce the subject to this backbiting because we must advance renewable energy generation in Ireland.

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What about farmers?

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We must advance our policy to promote energy efficiency-----

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Farmers against climate change,

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-----as otherwise we will simply not be in a position to make a realistic or any contribution to the change needed in Ireland. On the wind energy guidelines, nothing has broken down between Ministers in this regard.

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Why does the Minister never see him?

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Yes, the Departments involved are continuing to consider what would be the best set of guidelines.

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Two minutes later.

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However, there are guidelines in place and there is a good argument to make them statutory. There is a strong case for changing them to deal with the issues of noise and shadow flicker mentioned by Deputy Robert Troy. I consider the matter of having a setback distance unconnected with the issue of noise or shadow flicker to be more problematic. I have been honest about this because were there to be a setback distance similar to that advocated by some people, I repeat it would wipe out the use of onshore wind energy in this country as a renewable source. Incidentally, this is a technology Deputy Robert Troy's party when in government was happy and right to bring forward.

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The Government is continuing that process because we must do so. There is no use in talking about climate change and big aspirational points which, of course, make sense on their own, only to then quickly abandon all of these big thoughts and go back to seeing whom one can embarrass. In response to Deputy Robert Troy, I advocate that we work together on this issue as a country and as a Parliament to address the issue of climate change.

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Yes and show leadership.

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Away with all of this nonsense of attacking people just for the sake of it.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Yes, get away from the past.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I thank the Minister. May I have order, please? If we have order, Members might stay within the speaking time limits.

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It is to be hoped Government Members will afford me the same courtesy that they afforded the Minister when listening to his reply.

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They will not let the Deputy speak.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

A supplementary question, please.

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The Minister spoke about Fianna Fáil's position, but contrary to what he said, Fianna Fáil published an alternative energy document nearly two years ago. Moreover, we submitted it as part of the process the Government had initiated. Members of my party visited Denmark to consult experts before finalising the plan. Denmark is a country that is held up as an example of international best practice and that has recently moved away from onshore to offshore wind energy production. If the Minister seeks a copy of the plan, I have one to hand or could submit it to his office.

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One for everyone in the audience.

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Fianna Fáil is committed to meeting the European Union targets to reduce carbon emissions by 2030. However, the wind energy issue is of great concern across all provinces. It may not be a big issue in the centre of Dublin, but it certainly is a major issue in my constituency of Longford-Westmeath-----

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And Tipperary.

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-----and many other constituencies the length and breath of the country. Being committed to dealing with climate change and publishing new documents is all very well, but when such documents are not backed up by implementation and action plans, they simply gather dust.

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A question, please.

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Two years have passed since the Government committed to publishing new guidelines for wind turbines.

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Will there be a question?

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County development plans have been delayed, overturned and amended.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

A question, please.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Who signed up to the guidelines?

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There are High Court cases pending. Applications are still coming in under the outdated wind energy guidelines from 2006.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Who signed up to the guidelines?

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The Government is sitting on its guidelines.

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Applications still are being made and such applications will be dealt with under the old guidelines.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Will the Deputy, please, ask a question?

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Communities have real and genuine fears and I am merely representing them in the Chamber.

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To stir it up.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Who signed up to these targets? This is hypocrisy.

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The Minister is meeting them in delegations with Government Deputies on an ongoing basis.

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The Minister is also aware that there are real and genuine concerns.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

A question, please.

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I will ask the Minister one simple question. When will the Government - Fine Gael and the Labour Party - produce its wind energy guidelines and will they be put on a statutory footing?

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Who set the targets?

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That is two questions.

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Who will win the argument? Will it be the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, or the Minister, Deputy Alex White? What will the setback distance be?

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

No, Deputy, come on.

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I am standing up for the communities who have real fears.

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The people need to win the argument. The Deputy has stated he is here to represent his constituents, which is absolutely true and he does so with great fervour. However, he also is here to show leadership. When will he show some leadership on the issue?

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When will the Minister produce the documents?

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

This is Leaders' Questions.

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When will all Members realise that there is tension between what must be done in respect of renewable energy-----

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Between the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, and the Minister, Deputy Alex White.

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----- and the genuine and legitimate concerns of citizens and local communities? One must recognise that there is tension.

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Fianna Fáil populism.

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Tension on the backbenches.

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Members are the ones on whom it falls to find a way of removing such tension.

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Tension in the Cabinet.

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The Deputy should keep the peace.

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As for the White Paper that will be published next week, Deputy Robert Troy wanted to talk about Fianna Fáil's document, which I have seen, but he should not denigrate the idea that we come together as a Government and debate in this parliament a White Paper that will set out the path both on the issue of renewable energy and all related energy issues in the coming years.

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While planning applications continue.

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Members can have that debate in this House. The Deputy simply wishes to snipe about planning applications-----

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When will the guidelines be published?

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Typical Fianna Fáil populism.

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----- but I ask him to think for one minute about the possibilities for this country in developing renewable energy projects. Members will have the opportunity to debate that issue in the coming weeks.

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Dodge another election.

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A central element of the White Paper will address the genuine concerns people have in local communities about energy policy, on which there is tension.

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Tension is right.

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Will the Minister answer the question I asked?

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Responsibility for publication of guidelines lies with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, as the Deputy is aware.

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No, it is a Government decision.

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I have made my position clear.

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The Minister is representing the Government in the Chamber.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Will the Deputy, please, settle down?

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The sniping and heckling from Members opposite, unfortunately, are always a substitute for real debate.

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What about Government Members?

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Blame Kelly again.

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Deputy Michael Moynihan is the representative of Fianna Fáil on the committee and absolutely contributes on the issue of energy policy.

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The Minister should look behind him. Where is Wikileaks today?

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However, on energy policy-----

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The Minister cannot blame Kelly for everything.

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-----neither the Deputy nor Deputy Robert Troy can reduce their responsibility in this House in the way they seek to deal with the legitimate concerns of local communities.

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When will the Minister produce the guidelines?

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Fianna Fáil gave the Government a paper two years ago.

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They also have a responsibility to match what we must do as a country to have a renewable energy policy that will meet the challenges of the future.

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We gave the paper to the Government two years ago.

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Where are the guidelines?

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Members have been talking for too long about the issue.

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They have a responsibility to face the future, not to constantly face the past-----

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Compare Fianna Fáil's climate change Bill with that of the Government.

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-----or constantly regard the job in terms of it being a representative role, as it undoubtedly is, but also to give leadership.

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Will the Minister take over leadership of the Labour Party by blaming Kelly?

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Members opposite ask questions but will not allow anyone to finish.

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A Deputy

They are all obsessed with whingeing.

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The Minister has not answered the question. What about the guidelines?

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There are no guidelines.

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They are afraid they will be exposed for their lack of leadership on this issue. The Government will proceed. It will have a renewable energy policy that will be supported by the people because they will see the great potential inherent within it.

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Actions, not words.

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That will not wash.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald. May we have order, please?

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