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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

NAMA Project Eagle sale

Summary

Micheál Martin criticised the NAMA Project Eagle sale, citing alleged offshore payments, fixer fees and inadequate scrutiny, and called for an investigation. The Taoiseach defended the transaction as an open, proper sale to the highest bidder and invited evidence of wrongdoing.

Could I quickly take the opportunity to articulate my deepest sympathies and those of the Fianna Fáil Party at the appalling mass murder in the Pulse nightclub in Orlando last Saturday night? Our thoughts and prayers are with all those who have been bereaved and with the victims. It was an assault on the entire LGBT community in the US and globally. It represented a fundamental attack on the essence of our liberal, free democratic society and the immense destruction that can be wreaked by access to weaponry, which wreaked such havoc among young people enjoying a normal Saturday night out. May they rest in peace.

On Leaders' Questions proper, I want to put it to the Taoiseach - I raised this issue during the last Dáil - that as revelations emerge and as the level of the investigations get deeper, the Government's position on Project Eagle, the sale of Project Eagle by NAMA, becomes more untenable by the day, that is, the sense that there is nothing to investigate down here or that there is no necessity for the Government of the Irish Republic to be overly concerned about this particular deal. I do not believe that position is credible. The sales process, whether we like it or not or whether Nama likes it or not, was not robust, was not competitive and did not secure the best outcome. There are huge ethical questions over the entire sale of that asset. As we know, there was €7 million in an offshore account. We know there are allegations of fixers' fees. We know that PIMCO went to NAMA and said that third parties were looking for fees. At that stage NAMA said it forced PIMCO to withdraw but PIMCO said it voluntarily withdrew. However, that does not matter, the point is that Cerberus came in and used the same third parties or legal structures and we ended up with the sale at a very steep discount. We are talking about assets with a book value of more than €5 billion. NAMA purchased them for €2 billion and they were sold at a €400 million loss on NAMA's purchase price but the bottom line is that the Irish taxpayer has lost out substantially as a result of this particular deal.

The UK's National Crime Agency is investigating this. There have been two arrests and there are rumours of more arrests on the way. It is being investigated in the United States. The Northern Ireland finance committee has had an inquiry. At the very least, NAMA should have attended that inquiry. It is the biggest sale since the agency was established and there are huge concerns about it. Yet we, in the Republic, seem to have adopted an attitude that there is nothing to see here, that everything is fine on this side of the equation.

I put it to the Taoiseach that at the time that PIMCO revealed that people were seeking fees, surely that was the time for the entire deal to be called off, for both NAMA and the Minister for Finance, who was alerted to it, to call a halt to that deal and say there were too many questions about it. It was something from which they should have pulled back. The Irish taxpayer lost out to an extraordinary degree but worse than that, the deal is tainted, of that there can be no question.

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Has the Deputy a question?

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All of this could have been avoided if the Government had not decided to sell such large blocks of assets under NAMA and to force the pace in terms of accelerating the disposal of assets at steeper discounts than were necessary.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

On the first comment made by Deputy Martin, I understand arrangements have been made for a one minute contribution on the Order of Business in respect of the mass murder in Orlando.

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I did not know that.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It was only agreed a few minutes ago with the Ceann Comhairle. People will be aware that I gave instructions that the flag should fly at half mast and I have been in touch with President Obama about that. Leaders will have an opportunity to make a comment on the Order of Business.

On Deputy Martin's point in respect of NAMA and Project Eagle, I want him to understand that, as I have said here on many occasions, I am informed that this loan sale was executed in a proper manner. Despite all the comments and allegations, there are no claims of wrongdoing against NAMA. That loan portfolio was sold following an open process to the highest bidder for what it was worth. NAMA paid no moneys to any party on this loan sale against whom allegations of wrongdoing are now being made. Anyone with evidence of wrongdoing needs to report it immediately to the proper authorities, as I am sure Deputy Martin will do if he has information in that regard.

The Government and NAMA take very seriously, and why should they not, any accusations of NAMA employees or former employees breaching the NAMA Act.

I understand that over the weekend there have been some comments about the naming of persons who had been arrested. I understand that two individuals were held for questioning in relation to the UK's National Crime Agency investigation into the Northern Ireland sale of assets owned by NAMA.

I understand that a number of investigations are under way on that at the moment. I welcome these investigations as does the Minister for Finance. As they are serious allegations, clearly they are being thoroughly investigated in the relevant jurisdiction. NAMA continues to co-operate fully with the NCA and other relevant authorities in these investigations. The Department of Finance has previously made all relevant information on Project Eagle available publicly on its website. Separately, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is continuing its examination of the disposal of loans by Northern Ireland debtors. The Comptroller and Auditor General is, of course, positioned to report independently on that. His officials have confirmed that, given their independent role, any queries in regard to the timing, content or any other specified aspect are matters for the Comptroller and Auditor General. I might point out that the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee for Finance and Personnel which carried out a review on the Project Eagle sale was a committee of the previous Northern Ireland Assembly. The stated purpose of the Northern Ireland finance and personnel committee's review was to undertake a fact-finding review in respect of the operation of NAMA in Northern Ireland, including Project Eagle and related regulatory issues that fall within the Northern Ireland Department of Finance and Personnel. The Department of Finance assisted the committee by providing a large volume of documentation in response to the committee's requests. Separately, NAMA provided detailed written responses to over 100 questions submitted by the committee. I understand that the committee published all of this documentation as well as all other evidence gathered in the course of its review in a detailed timeline on its website. I understand the committee intends to resume its work.

If there is anything else that warrants further analysis here, I would be very happy to hear it from Deputies. I am sure that if Deputy Martin has come across information that should be given to the authorities, he will provide it.

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A consistent thread in the Taoiseach's replies to various people on this question during the last Dáil and this one is that there has been no wrongdoing on NAMA's behalf.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I said "No allegations of wrongdoing against NAMA".

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The allegations are about the deal. That is the point but the Taoiseach keeps almost deliberately ignoring it. The allegations are about the entirety of the deal, its ethics and its rightness or wrongness. Surely, when people heard that there was up to €7 million in an offshore account, it raised eyebrows. Surely, the deal should have been called off when PIMCO alerted NAMA to elements of what was going on and when the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was himself alerted to what was going on at that stage. There is no point in saying that everything on our side was fine and we have covered our backs, that all our paperwork is clear and clean in the Republic and in NAMA headquarters and the fact that others may have got up to all kinds of activity is of no concern to us.

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I thank the Deputy.

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That is what has come back to us in regard to this. It is the sense that has come from Ministers, the Taoiseach and NAMA in a very defensive mode. Instead of saying that something is rotten in the state of Denmark in regard to this deal, it is in our interests to tackle and deal with it.

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Thank you, Deputy.

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Did it ever occur to the Taoiseach that we should have set up a commission of investigation when the National Crime Agency, the US Securities and Exchange Commission and others were pursuing this? The Taoiseach mentioned the Northern Assembly. There seems to be a sense of a connection and a nexus between politics and all of this in the North as well. That may emerge in the coming weeks.

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Deputy, the time has elapsed. Thank you.

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I put to the Taoiseach the question of whether he ever asked the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, why the shutters were not pulled down on this deal when PIMCO gave its information to NAMA in regard to third parties.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

If Deputy Martin makes the case, the Government is in no way defensive about this issue.

If there is something rotten, as the Deputy says, in the state of Denmark relative to this case, what he is saying is that the process by which this sale was completed was wrong, was not up to standard and was not in accordance with proper procedure. I am informed that the sale was conducted under proper conditions, that it was sold following an open process to the highest bidder for what it was worth.

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Someone pocketed €7 million.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Is that right or is it not right? That is what I am informed. If I am being misinformed here, if somebody has got evidence to that effect, I would certainly like to hear it. The Deputy makes the point that the sale should have been stopped. Where is the evidence that the process that was followed was not open-----

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The €7 million.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----was not above board-----

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The offshore account.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----and was not fair?

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There are seven million reasons.

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One speaker, please.

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The offshore account and the money paid in fixers' fees.

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The Taoiseach to conclude.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

In the sale being concluded, the information that I am given, standing here in the position that I hold, is that this was conducted in a proper and open process, and was sold to the highest bidder for what it was worth. If the Deputy has information to the effect that this is not-----

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There was only one bidder.

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Seán Fleming Deputy Sean Fleming Fianna Fáil

There was only one bidder at that point.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----the way it was, I will be happy to hear it, or from anybody else either.

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