Project Eagle and NAMA inquiry
Deputy Calleary challenged the Government on reversing its commitment to a commission of inquiry into Project Eagle and questioned the Minister’s handling of NAMA. Minister Bruton defended NAMA’s statutory independence and denied any improper ministerial involvement; the exchange then shifted into a separate leaders’ clash over the Government’s confidence vote, its reliance on Independents and Fianna Fáil, and accountability for what had been agreed behind the scenes. The Ceann Comhairle repeatedly intervened to manage the questioning and time.
I note that the terms of reference for the Charleton inquiry have been published and that they will be subject to debate later in the afternoon. Subsequent to events last night and based on the line-up of Ministers in front of us, are we looking at an audition here this morning?
I draw the attention of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Richard Bruton, to a commitment the Government made on establishing a commission of inquiry to investigate Project Eagle, from which it seems to be reversing. As the Minister knows, it was reported in 2015 that Project Eagle, a loan portfolio of 850 properties across Northern Ireland, was sold for €1.6 billion by NAMA. There is considerable concern that this was not the true value of this amount of property and that the true value was not sought or delivered. The Comptroller and Auditor General has made some very damning findings in that regard.
There are allegations of political involvement, both in the North and in the South, and representations that favoured one buyer over another, and these have been covered in detail by BBC's "Spotlight" programme. Cerberus, the successful buyer, actually met the Department of Finance before the sale was closed, which I would imagine was completely inappropriate. I ask the Minister, Deputy Bruton, to comment on that. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, actually met Cerberus the day before the closure.
There are reports and records of contact between the Minister for Finance and Ministers from Northern Ireland, particularly the then First Minister, Mr. Peter Robinson, and the then Minister, Mr. Sammy Wilson. It is alleged also that £7 million was involved in fixing the deal and that it was lodged in an offshore account. This is now being investigated by an assembly finance committee.
There are allegations that decisions in NAMA were made without adequate notes being taken or proper management of the apparent conflicts of interest. There was a flawed sales process and an inability on the part of NAMA to show that it got the best value for money for the State. The sale involved so much money that investigations by the US Securities and Exchange Commission and the US Department of Justice are under way.
The Committee of Public Accounts is finalising a report on the sale as we speak and has been working on that for the past number of months, but the Government committed on an all-party basis to a commission of inquiry into Project Eagle some weeks ago. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has demurred from that commitment because he does not feel that there were adequate grounds for a commission.
Will the Minister, Deputy Bruton, commit that the Government will establish a commission of inquiry and will he outline the timeline for its terms of reference?
Comment on this
I thank the Deputy for his question. I was in the House when we established NAMA. One of the aspects that we took considerable care in ensuring was that there could be no possibility of the Minister for Finance of the day interfering in NAMA's commercial activities. I was on the Opposition benches at the time and that was written into the law for good reason, namely, to ensure that NAMA was established on an independent basis and would make its own commercial decisions. That has been the at bedrock of NAMA's operations. Clearly, this means that the Minister for Finance is completely cut off from the way in which NAMA makes decisions about Cerberus, Project Eagle or any other matter in which it has dealings. It is important that the House is aware of this important separation.
As to the idea of establishing a commission of investigation, I understand that the Taoiseach met the leaders of the Opposition and it was agreed in principle that such a commission would be established. As the Deputy averted to, however, we also know that the Committee of Public Accounts is undertaking a report on this issue as a follow-up to the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is appropriate that we would hear the outcome of the deliberations of that committee, which is an organ of this House, before we make a decision in plenary on the terms of reference and the appropriate scope of any commission of investigation. That is the approach that is being taken and it is wholly appropriate. The results will fall where they may and the Government is fully open to such an approach.
Comment on this
If, to quote the Minister, "the Minister for Finance is completely cut off", why did the latter meet Cerberus the day before the deal on Project Eagle went through? Why did he say in the House only a few weeks ago that, in his view, there did not seem to be adequate grounds for a commission? That does not suggest to me that the Minister is "completely cut off". The question is one of whether NAMA delivered the best return possible on taxpayers' money. In the view of the Comptroller and Auditor General, our spending watchdog, it did not. The notion that the Minister could be cut off fails in that instance. In fact, taxpayers have been failed. We need answers.
I welcome the commitment by the Minister, Deputy Bruton that the commission will be established. We expect the Committee of Public Accounts to publish its report within the next fortnight. On that basis, how quickly will the Government move to establish the commission?
Comment on this
To make it clear, there is no question of the Minister having acted inappropriately. He met a former US Secretary of the Treasury who happened to be an employee of Cerberus. He had no hand, act or part in the decision of NAMA, which is established independently under statute to make decisions on its own. Its decisions and decision-making process are what are under scrutiny, as the Deputy rightly recognised. The Minister for Finance has not been involved in that decision-making process, either about the selection of tenderers or any of the other matters about which the Comptroller and Auditor General has raised questions.
The issue that is before the Committee of Public Accounts is whether the approach taken by NAMA was adequate. The Minister for Finance has been open with the committee and participated fully in its discussions.
It is clear that we have set up legislation that ensures that NAMA makes its decisions independently of any politician.
That is operating. The Committee of Public Accounts, which is an independent body, has a right to scrutinise the outcome of that and if we, in this House, decide the commission of inquiry, which has been agreed in principle, ought to go ahead, we will make that decision but it is entirely to make sure there is proper public accountability for decisions made, on a delegated basis, by NAMA, which was entirely delegated to make those commercial decisions independent of the Minister for Finance or any other politician.
Comment on this
Last night the shambolic and incompetent Government scraped through a vote of confidence. While the Government might have won the vote it should be very clear that it and the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, do not enjoy the confidence or support of the majority of Irish people. The Taoiseach and the Government remain in power by way of favour from Fianna Fáil and the Independents in the Government. We all know why Fianna Fáil gave its continued support to this clapped-out Government. Deputy Micheál Martin and his crew are very happy for the failing coalition to remain in power, perpetuating crises and injustice in housing and health. A weak Government suits Fianna Fáil until it is ready to pull the plug based on its own narrow electoral interests. We are clear about what Fianna Fáil is at and why it keeps the Government in power. That is not in question.
Comment on this
Could the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, tell me how the Government managed to secure the support of its Independent colleagues? What was the price of the votes of the Ministers, Deputies Shane Ross, John Halligan, Seán Canney, Kevin Boxer Moran and Finian McGrath, for keeping Deputy Enda Kenny, an incredibly incompetent Taoiseach, in power? We know the Independents were promised some unspecified review of Garda operations by international experts, something that already falls within the remit of the Garda Inspectorate. However, there is a suspicion that more was offered to the Independent Alliance members of the Government in terms of goodies for their constituencies. Could the Minister indicate whether that is true? Perhaps it was another cath lab for the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, in Waterford or Stepaside Garda station, for the Minister, Deputy Ross.
The Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny's name is writ large across the turmoil and chaos in which the Government has become embroiled in the past week. Indeed, his name is writ large across every crisis over which the Government presides. Before the general election last year the Taoiseach told the people it was a clear choice between stability and chaos. He was right, and he has delivered the chaos in spades. Through his evasion, spin and incompetence in the handling of the McCabe scandal, Deputy Enda Kenny has proven himself unfit to continue as Taoiseach. It is clear from media reports this morning that Fine Gael members do not trust Deputy Enda Kenny to run the party so how on earth do they trust him to run the Government?
I have two questions for the Minister. Could he give us the details in full of the deal reached with Fine Gael's Independent supporters yesterday? Given that Deputy Enda Kenny does not command the confidence of the people, when will he vacate the office of Taoiseach?
Comment on this
I thank Deputy Mary Lou McDonald for the question. As she is aware, the objective of the Government is set out in the programme for Government and the Independents and Fine Gael have agreed on that approach. It is all about using our steadily improving economy to improve the lives of people and it is built on a very solid set of programmes. We have a very comprehensive plan on housing, which we never had before. We also have a comprehensive plan on rural revival, which we also never had before. We are seeing every day more people getting back to work and more people returning who had to leave these shores. It is due to the policies pursued by the previous Government and continued now, with a new emphasis on fairness, by the present Government.
Comment on this
Deputy Mary Lou McDonald's party has spent its time relentlessly trying to stand in the way of the progress this Government has made. We are now seeing the fruits of that, namely, more investment in education, housing and health. In terms of what is new from the discussions yesterday, the Independents asked that an independent expert from overseas would look at the process we have put in place to improve the oversight of the Garda, and that is right.
I am proud of the changes we made, which include introducing whistleblowers' legislation, an independent Policing Authority and an independent Garda Inspectorate and strengthening GSOC. It is appropriate at this point that we would look at whether that process, which has been operating for some time, meets best international practice. That is what the Independents have asked for and been provided with. That is part of an approach by this Government to make sure we have solid accountability for our gardaí and other State bodies. That is something this Government is pledged to deliver. As stones have been turned over in recent times, we have seen things we hoped were not there but that is the reality. We are getting to the bottom of those problems and dealing with them very clearly. There is no special deal with the Independents. There is a programme for Government that will improve the lives of the people of this country. Confidence was voted in that Government yesterday. There is a very full agenda that we will continue to pursue.
Comment on this
The Government's record is quite eye-catching - indeed, eye watering. It includes one in eight persons on waiting lists, which is quite something, and childhoods spent in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, hostels and hotels. If the Minister believes this is stuff to brag about, that is, of course, his prerogative. I would beg to differ. I asked the Minister to set out very clearly what the Government has agreed with its Independent colleagues. It is important that he does so. He seems to be suggesting that an inspection of the Garda Inspectorate is what is envisaged. I find that deeply implausible. I suggest that if the Government's Independent colleagues agreed to that, one wonders about the clarity of their thought. The Minister should remember that the inspectorate has delivered 754 recommendations, the vast majority of which have not been implemented.
I also asked the Minister about the position of the Taoiseach. Listening to the Minister's Fine Gael colleagues, it is very clear that confidence in Deputy Enda Kenny as the leader of Fine Gael has run out. That is Fine Gael's business but how can the Government plausibly suggest that this man should remain as Taoiseach? I have asked a question and I think we need an answer. When will the Taoiseach step aside?
Comment on this
If other things have been agreed with Independent Deputies, it is as well for the Minister to put them on the record now rather than for them to come to light later on.
Comment on this
We have a programme for Government to which we are operating. That is the arrangement and that is the truth of it. Deputy McDonald must see that we are improving the situation in health even though we have problems there. We are treating 20% more people in our health service and 2 million people will have operations this coming year as a result of the investment we are putting into that, so there are many people coming into our hospitals, getting good treatment and having their lives improved as a result of the investment we are able to make. The reason we are able to make that investment is that we worked carefully over the past couple of years to get 200,000 people back to work. We are talking about 200,000 pay packets going into homes and revenue into our Exchequer. We are able to invest in education and health. That is the only way we can improve our lot.
I have heard Sinn Féin. It criticises, condemns and expresses outrage about everything but supports nothing. It has opposed every single effort by this Government and the previous one to provide improvements for our community. I quoted Teddy Roosevelt last night. He drew a distinction between the critic, who is abundant on the Opposition benches, and the doer, who gets into the arena and delivers change that has a real impact on people's lives.
Comment on this
I asked two questions and the Minister-----
Comment on this
I ask the Deputy to resume her seat. She has asked a question in the same way that other leaders have asked questions and has received an answer in the same way others have. That is the process. If she does not like it, she may seek to have it changed but we cannot change it on the floor of the House.
Comment on this
The Ceann Comhairle has no role in ensuring accountability for Ministers to answer-----
Comment on this
Let me be very clear. It is not the time for questions but I will answer the Deputy's question. I have a role as per the Dáil reform arrangements in respect of ministerial questions. I have no role in respect of directing the Taoiseach or his representative to answer any particular question posed to them in any particular way.
The Deputy might look at the Dáil reform arrangements and Standing Orders that are in place. I call Deputy Howlin.