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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

AIB sale and fiscal capacity

Summary

Brendan Howlin challenged the planned sale of 25% of AIB, arguing that the issue was not access to money but the inability to spend because of fiscal rules. The Taoiseach replied that the sale was a financial transaction for debt reduction, and that the European Investment Bank might help finance off-balance-sheet capital projects through income-generating infrastructure.

I send my sympathy and condolences and those of the Labour Party to the family of the late Captain Dara Fitzpatrick and the crew of Rescue 116, and wish Godspeed to all those engaged now in the important work of recovery for those families. I also send my condolences and those of my party to the family of Derry City captain, Ryan McBride. We will have an opportunity later to have a fuller offering of condolences to the Sinn Féin Party and the family of the late Martin McGuinness.

The Government is pressing ahead with its plans to sell off 25% of AIB. This has been planned despite the fact the proceeds cannot be invested in Irish infrastructure that is so needed. All of us in the House and the people of the country are acutely aware of what it cost the Irish taxpayers and people to bail out our banks. It was always understood and expected we would get back a significant portion of it. We need now to think and plan strategically when it comes to deploying funds which might become available to the State.

For many months I have been making the case for changes to the Stability and Growth Pact to allow for greater investment in public infrastructure. I have been advancing this work with my colleagues in the Party of European Socialists and that work is now being adopted by them. I have also repeatedly raised the matter in the Chamber hoping the Taoiseach would do likewise. Unfortunately, he has not provided a response to date that would indicate he would also push for a shift at European level on this matter. The result is that right now none of the proceeds of the sale of AIB can be invested in building the houses, hospitals and schools which we so urgently need. The policy of selling off our holding in AIB was based on the urgent need to reduce our debt but that situation has dramatically changed since the previous Government made that decision. Net debt had already decreased to 66% of GDP prior to the most recent CSO published data and it will fall further.

Diverting everything we get from the sale of AIB would have an impact of approximately 1.5% on debt, a small impact. The social good it would yield if we deployed it to meet our infrastructure deficits would be infinitely greater. IBEC and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have pressed for greater investment. The social case for housing and hospitals, as I have already said, is crystal clear, and the economic case for investment in transport and communications is equally so, amplified by having Brexit on the horizon. Will the Taoiseach clarify what efforts he has made to secure changes in the Stability and Growth Pact rules to allow us make the urgent investment we now need in our vital infrastructure, particularly having regard to Brexit?

Will the Taoiseach clarify whether he intends to press ahead with the sale even if the proceeds of the sale cannot be used for infrastructural investment?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy for his comments on the rescue of Rescue 116 and those who lost their lives.

With regard to the other issue he raised, this is a financial transaction. The paper asset shares are being swapped for a cash injection. That will go towards debt reduction, as the Minister for Finance has made clear. It is also a test of the overall examination of value of AIB. The Government is looking at alternative ways of raising other funding. One of those follows the opening of the European Investment Bank office here in Dublin, which has potential for serious lending of long term, low-interest credit for infrastructure facilities, where a stream of income would be available to repay those loans, whether from tolled motorways, developments of ports or areas of transport like light rail, such as metros or the Luas. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is now conducting a review of the capital programme in partnership with that. The Government allocated almost €5 billion to the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government to provide houses across a range of areas and this has been backed up by a suite of changes that have been made by the Government to incentivise both local authorities and housing agencies and provide new impetus for availability of sites and so on. I hope that those three aspects - the review of the capital programme, the opportunity that is now being explored through the European Investment Bank and the capacity for further lending into the system - will bring forward new opportunities for investment here.

The Minister has said that, based on the advice he has received, an initial public offering, IPO, is the best route to recoup the State's investment in AIB and the key objective is to maximise the proceeds that we can recover over time. The State invested €20.8 billion in AIB through a range of instruments during the financial crisis. It has since recovered €6.6 billion through capital repayments, interest income and fees, and still owns about 99.9% of the ordinary share capital. The primary objective of the Minister and of the Government is to recover all of this investment from AIB. We believe that this is a realistic objective over the medium to long term. There are no changes in the Stability and Growth Pact rules here. It is a transfer of these paper shares for cash, which will go towards debt reduction.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach mentioned European Investment Bank money. The Taoiseach knows that the issue is not access to money. Money is cheap and accessible to this country. It is the ability under the Stability and Growth Pact rules to spend it which is the issue. I asked if the Taoiseach has done anything to alter the rules to allow the vital infrastructure spend that we need to be made. We have seen financial advisers working on the sale of AIB stand to gain some €40 million from this action over the past couple of weeks. No such benefit will accrue to the taxpayer. We need to see the money that becomes available used for the productive capacity of the State to meet the real infrastructure deficits that we need to meet if we are going to face up to Brexit. That is not a view that I only hold. Last week, The Sunday Times reported that Deputy Michael McGrath had similar concerns while Deputy Pearse Doherty is opposed to the sale. Will the Taoiseach bring proposals to the floor of the House before any further progress is made on this matter since there seems to be a majority in it opposed to the action proposed by Government?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Minister has already pointed out that there are two potential windows for the disposal of the sale this year, either May or June or some time in the autumn. The Government is fortunately not under any particular pressure to sell so the market conditions will impact on when the Minister decides to make his recommendation to Government to sell. The sale of the bank shares would not result in a beneficial impact to the general Government balance as it would not be counted as revenue, as Deputy Howlin is aware.

Comment on this

That is the very point I am making.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

There is, therefore, no increased capacity to spend. The proceeds from any IPO would be used to pay down debt. As I pointed out to the Deputy earlier, it is possible to spend substantial moneys off balance sheet provided an income stream can be identified from, for example, investment from the European Investment Bank.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach knows that the Department of Finance has worked for three years trying to find that.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As Deputy Howlin is well aware, the European Investment Bank is here in Dublin. It is open for business and one of those businesses is to identify streams of income that would have a capacity to repay long-term loans such as, for example, tolled motorways, the development of ports, or provision where there are streams of income from the Luas, metro or light-rail systems. That matter is being actively explored by the Department of Finance with the European Investment Bank.

Comment on this

Time is up.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I hope that it will bring success and that money can be spent off balance sheet. The Minister is already looking at the question of a review of the capital programme for the time ahead.

Comment on this