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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions (Resumed)

Water charges and democracy

Summary

Mary Lou McDonald attacked the Government–Fianna Fáil water deal as subverting the people’s wishes and asked who the chronic wasters were and how levies would be paid. The Taoiseach defended the committee report and said the majority prevails in a democracy, while members traded interruptions throughout.

Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, who knows the rules, is next. You have three minutes.

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Thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for reminding me of the rules.

The people faced the Taoiseach down on water charges. They called a halt to the Government's plans and privatisation agenda and the Taoiseach did not like it one bit.

Yesterday, the Government and Fianna Fáil cobbled together a deal that seeks to subvert the will of the people and their democratically expressed wishes on the future of our water services. The Joint Committee on the Future Funding of Domestic Water Services was on the verge of agreeing a report that would have comprehensively addressed the demands for which so many people have protested and marched in recent years. However, the Taoiseach was not having that. The Taoiseach could not listen and accept the will of the people. The Taoiseach still clings to the hope that he will finally have his way.

The antics of the Government and Fianna Fáil to save the Government's rejected water policy have been truly a sight to behold. The political choreography was set. Senior counsel came to the committee and delivered legal advice that completely contradicted the legal advice offered only one week before. Conveniently, the legal advice delivered yesterday was in line with the Government's needs. It tore through the agreed position of the committee and gave the Government and Fianna Fáil a way out. Yesterday, it was confirmed, for once and all, that the Government's confidence and supply agreement is in reality an agreement for connivance and cute-hoorism.

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That is very unparliamentary language.

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The connivance is provided by the Taoiseach's party in its blatant undermining of the democratic and political processes within the Oireachtas. The cute-hoorism is, as ever, provided by Fianna Fáil, which has flip-flopped once again. Fianna Fáil Members have used their political strength not to be constructive, as they proclaim, but to face down and thwart the will of the people. In a most spectacular U-turn, Fianna Fáil has shown once again that it cannot be trusted.

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I thought Deputy McDonald was paying them.

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When it comes down to it, Fianna Fáil will look after itself first. That comes as no surprise but many people will be glad of the reminder. The truth is that this debacle has absolutely nothing to do with complying with EU law and everything to do with Fianna Fáil's fear of a general election. Fianna Fáil Members broke their key election pledge to abolish water charges in their totality.

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Will Deputy McDonald be paying?

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These proponents of new politics call themselves the centre ground. However, they have demonstrated that it is only a brand name for business as usual. There is nothing new about what happened yesterday. It has been happening for decades, and with the same result: the ordinary people get screwed by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. What they call the centre ground is in really the insiders and the political classes. It is those who believe that power and authority are their entitlement.

In this report, Fine Gael has its levy for excess use. This is a way of keeping the back door open for the return of charges.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy, please. I call the Taoiseach to respond.

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Fine Gael also has metering. Here are my questions.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

You should fit them into the time.

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Can the Taoiseach explain what wilful abuse of water supply is? Who are the wilful abusers of this supply?

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call the Taoiseach. You will have another opportunity.

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Who are the chronic wasters of water?

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

You will have a further opportunity.

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Can the Taoiseach tell us how they will pay these levies?

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Probably with money.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I want to congratulate the deputy leader for cynical outrage in her consistency, at least. She comes in here time after time and talks about privatisation of the water system. I described it yesterday as fantasy and she is at it again today.

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It is not fantasy. It is between the Government and Fianna Fáil.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy McDonald's leader and party made it perfectly clear that Sinn Féin supported water charges and that Sinn Féin would pay its water charges.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

An Taoiseach, without interruption.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Adams is not here today. I hope that he is in Belfast making arrangements for the Sinn Féin party to come together with the DUP and form a working Executive. We have other matters to consider besides the kind of carry-on that Deputy McDonald is on about this morning.

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The Taoiseach should be considering it. It is his responsibility.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I am glad that the committee, which was set up for a specific purpose, has agreed a report. The process is democratic and Sinn Féin is a very democratic party.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

An Taoiseach, without interruption from anybody.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It had other ways of dealing with the middle ground before. They are all democrats, abide by the law and understand that. The committee set up for that purpose has made its recommendation and its report. The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government will now proceed to provide legislation to deal with the recommendations that are in that report.

I differ from Deputy McDonald on this. I come from a part of the world where hundreds of thousands of people welcomed and waited for access to water for a very long time and have always paid for it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy McDonald lives in a world where when the tap is turned on, somebody else has paid for it. That is what she wants.

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We all pay for it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The whole theme of the Deputy today is not about a solution; it is about the lack of further protest available to her, because that is all she wants.

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The Taoiseach is having a laugh.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach without interruption.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is all Sinn Féin wants. Its entire political system is based on outrage, cynicism and protest. In this case, our country is moving on.

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The Taoiseach is moving on.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I would like to have water meters in every house so that everybody could judge and make arrangements for the safe use of a precious commodity. Deputy McDonald has a different view. She wants everything for nothing. I am quite prepared to be democratic and allow the Oireachtas to deal with the legislation that the Minister will bring forward. If Deputy McDonald's attempt is at outrage today, her attack is silently on the Fianna Fáil party. At least it had the courage to come to a conclusion in the interests of our country and move on.

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The Taoiseach should not worry about my outrage.

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It is permanent.

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It is not me that he should be concerned about; it is the outrage of people that I represent-----

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The people with the swimming pools?

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-----who pay their taxes and who pay for everything.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputies, please. Deputy McDonald without interruption.

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I notice Deputy Donohoe is laughing. These are people who live in the community that he also represents.

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Which I am privileged to represent.

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There is nobody looking for something for nothing. That is not the debate here. What is at issue is who prevails in a democratic society.

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The majority.

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What we have seen is a textbook example of the Parliament, the Dáil and elected representatives-----

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-----conniving to abandon their democratic mandate and, rather than seeking to represent the people, seeking to face them down. That is what they are all about. That is what their new politics - old politics - is all about.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Go raibh maith agat, a Theachta. Ceist.

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Who are the chronic water wasters? Who are these people? How will they pay these levies?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy asked a very important question there. I thought she knew the answer but I am going to give it to her anyway. She asked who prevails in a democratic society. The answer is the majority. That is what democracy is about.

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The majority voted for those who promised to get rid of water charges.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The issues are talked out and a decision is made. A decision was made by an Oireachtas committee set up for the purpose of examining the expert review that had made its recommendations and-----

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And then overturned.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----it has agreed a report. The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government now has the responsibility to table legislation to give effect to that report. That is the process that is under way. That is called democracy and that is democracy in action. Despite Deputy McDonald's protests, cynicism, false outrage-----

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I am outraged, but my outrage is the least of the Taoiseach's worries.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----despite the fact that she wants everything for nothing and wants to pay for nothing-----

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Answer the questions.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The answer to the question is-----

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Answer the questions.

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He is as watery as usual.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Order, please. Give the Taoiseach an opportunity.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Ferris knows a lot about paying taxes as well. The answer to the question-----

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So did Fine Gael when it was prosecuted for not paying taxes.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The question is: who prevails in a democratic society? The answer is the majority. I am glad that, in respect of this matter, a report has been agreed and that the Oireachtas can now proceed to deal with the legislation to give effect to that, which will provide an opportunity for people who have excessive usage to conserve water. It will also ensure that people will pay a penalty for excessive usage.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach has exceeded his time. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

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