Last November at Government Buildings, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health announced with great fanfare that the National Maternity Hospital was to be co-located with St. Vincent's Hospital. It was greeted positively at the time but the Government gave no indication of the detail involved. The co-location is welcome. Holles Street is no longer fit for purpose. There is a moral and public interest obligation on all concerned to facilitate the co-location of the National Maternity Hospital with St. Vincent's in the interest of the safety of the women of this country and those who avail of the services. When the details emerged, people were very taken aback that the ownership of the hospital was to reside in the St. Vincent's Hospital group and the Sisters of Charity and that the State's investment of hundreds of millions of euro would not be reflected in the ownership of the new hospital. Notwithstanding the Minister had embraced this last November and must have been aware of the details, given that he appointed Kieran Mulvey as mediator, he rushed out saying he was going to write to the HSE to seek clarification on the deal. When in doubt the Minister wrote to the HSE, as if he knew nothing about it - a rabbit caught in headlights. The furore that developed as a result of the revelations seemed to catch him by surprise. It is no surprise St. Vincent's Hospital group was taken aback by the Minister's position.

It is not just a church-State issue but a financial one and one of corporate interests.

It is about who protects the taxpayer and the taxpayers' investment in a facility such as this and who is negotiating on behalf of the taxpayer. Clinical independence is critical but so also is taxpayers getting full recognition and reflection for their investment in any new facility such as this. We need far more transparency in this particular deal. The public-private mix, for example, is an important issue that should not go without some degree of scrutiny. Will the Taoiseach confirm that there will be complete clinical independence in the new national maternity hospital to be located at St. Vincent's University Hospital? Will he also confirm that the hospital group and the Sisters of Charity will not have a majority on the board? Above all, will he ensure the State, through the taxpayer, will own the hospital and have its investment reflected in it as the bottom line, given the level of investment involved?

I can confirm that there will be complete clinical independence and that the Sisters of Charity will not have a majority on the board. Ownership is a matter that requires some consideration. As a former Minister for Health, Deputy Micheál Martin will appreciate that we cannot equivocate about having the very best facilities available to expectant mothers, including co-location with an appropriate hospital that can provide expert attention, if needed.

During the term of office of the last Government the decision was taken to move the National Maternity Hospital from Holles Street to the St. Vincent's Univeristy Hospital complex. I have listened to too many stories about the inadequate facilities available at Holles Street hospital in which 9,000 babies are born every year. While a planning application has not yet been lodged for the proposed new maternity hospital on the St. Vincent's University Hospital complex, the proposed structure guarantees that the very best facilities that one would expect to see in the early part of this century will be available for expectant mothers. Where these facilities are provided in Holles Street hospital they are completely unacceptable. I have listened very carefully to the words of the master of Holles Street hospital on many occasions about the difficulties there and the poor facilities available. Co-location with St. Vincent's University Hospital is obviously best practice, clinically, and will ensure that in the rare circumstances in which women need urgent care and attention, they will receive it immediately in St. Vincent's University Hospital, which is a very fine hospital. As the master of Holles Street hospital and the Minister for Health have stated, the new national maternity hospital will be completely independent, clinically and operationally. The move to St. Vincent's University Hospital was endorsed by the boards of the two hospitals last week.

It is clear that the focus now is on the issue of ownership. We can all agree on issues such as the importance of co-locating with a major hospital and the need for brand new facilities for expectant mothers and their babies. These are issues on which everybody can agree; the debate is about ownership. The Minister for Health has worked closely with both hospitals to get a deal on the new national maternity hospital. Members will recall that when the former Minister for Health, Senator James Reilly, made this decision and during the term of his successor, Deputy Leo Varadkar, there were two mediation efforts in an attempt to settle the question between the two boards. Subsequently, Mr. Kieran Mulvey negotiated a deal between the board of the St. Vincent's Trust and Holles Street hospital. The Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, has asked for and been given one month by the Government to allow space for all parties to discuss further the question of ownership of the hospital. This is an issue that deserves real debate in the context of ownership of statutory and voluntary hospitals. The agreement reached between the two hospitals was that there would be a lien on the new facility in accordance with whatever funding arrangements would be put in place by the State. Different options have been used in the past in doing this and the Minister for Health believes there is potential to devise a solution that will provide absolute reassurance on the ownership of the facilities which will be paid for by the State. The Minister for Health has my support in that regard.

Across Ireland there are different hospital owners, including the HSE, voluntary charters, congregations and private companies.

The Minister for Health is examining how best to put in place a process to facilitate the broader conversation that needs to be held. I can confirm the first two points raised by the Deputy in his concluding questions. On the third point, we are in the process of devising a solution to the ownership concerns. Nothing is being held up. A planning application has not yet been lodged.

The Minister for Health must have known about the ownership issue last November. The Taoiseach must have known about it, but he chose not to tell anyone about it. He hoped people would not notice. It was only when it became public in the last two weeks that the Minister pretended that he never knew about it and suggested he would try to rectify it in the next month. I put it to the Taoiseach that there is a moral obligation on everybody, including the St. Vincent's hospital group, to provide and facilitate the provision of the hospital. It has been suggested there have been three mediations. On what are they mediating? It needs to be registered and said the St. Vincent's health care campus would not be in place without the current and capital expenditure input of the State. The women of Ireland need the new maternity hospital. The idea that some people are reluctant partners in facilitating its provision is out of order. There is an obligation to do so. People should have been far more transparent. Why do the Sisters of Charity want to own the hospital? Does anybody know the answer to that question? Do they want to own it for financial or corporate reasons? Is there something else we are not being told? Is the complicated financial set-up on the campus preventing the St. Vincent's hospital group from giving the property over to the State? I think we need answers to that question. Fundamentally, I put it to the Taoiseach that the State should own the hospital and that the State's investment should be reflected in the ownership model. He has not really given me an answer to these assertions. I do not think anybody could have any doubt about these basic principles or any reason to disagree with them, particularly in the modern era when religious orders are in decline. We have heard about lay trusts eventually coming on stream. That is not the right route into the future given the way things are going.

That is all part of the very argument, discussion and conversation in which the Minister for Health is engaging. Is it a fact that every time facilities are provided by the State the State has to own the building and the land? As the Deputy is aware, having allowed it to drift when he served as Minister for Health and Children-----

No, I did not.

-----there is agreement that the National Maternity Hospital in Holles Street is not up to standard.

That is why the HSE was set up.

The Deputy knows that to be the case.

It was set up to deal with that issue.

The master of the National Maternity Hospital and her predecessors have said it. The decision to move the hospital to the St. Vincent's University Hospital complex was taken by the previous Government. The land is owned by the trust mentioned. Deputy Micheál Martin has said the new hospital should be in public ownership. There are very strong opinions that that should be so, but the land is not owned by the State. Is the Deputy suggesting it should be acquired by means of a compulsory purchase order?

No, I am not.

Okay. That is off. Is the Deputy suggesting the sisters should hand it over to the State?

Okay.

That is an option. Is the Deputy suggesting there should be long-term leases? That is an option.

Of course it is.

We can all agree that expectant mothers should have world-class facilities, that expert attention should be provided when there are complications with births and that the plans I have seen, which I announced with the Minister and the HSE, are absolutely world-class and first-class. The plans include private rooms and all the facilities expectant mothers should have in this day and age. I suggest we should focus on the issues. There will be complete and utter clinical independence. They will have no majority on the board. In the coming weeks we should discuss how best we can bring about a solution to the concerns about ownership that have been validly expressed. The Minister is focusing on this issue as a priority and he has the full backing of the Government in that regard.