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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Charleton tribunal and other rulings

Summary

Deputy Barry raised the alleged missing Garda Commissioner phone and the Charleton inquiry, while the Taoiseach defended the tribunal as the proper forum. The Chair repeatedly ruled out attempts to add unrelated matters such as Magdalen laundries and asylum seekers, and Barry was eventually allowed to return to Charleton, with Coppinger criticising the Government’s record on reports.

Former Garda press officer, Superintendent Dave Taylor, claims that he sent a text to the Garda Commissioner, Nóirín O'Sullivan, some years ago in which he told her that a journalist had interviewed a person making allegations against Maurice McCabe. Superintendent Taylor claims Commissioner O'Sullivan sent a one-word reply, "Perfect." We are told now that Commissioner O'Sullivan's phone from that time has gone missing and cannot be provided to the Charleton tribunal - perfect. Superintendent Taylor's phone has not been provided to the Charleton tribunal either. It was taken from him as part of an internal Garda investigation led by Commissioner O'Sullivan's husband and has not been returned to him.

Commissioner O' Sullivan's husband has Superintendent Taylor's phone and the Commissioner cannot find her own phone - perfect, again. A senior Garda source told The Irish Times that "A search of Garda headquarters has taken place in recent weeks to try to find the missing phones, but there is little hope of the material being found at this stage". I would say not. Was that phone officially reported missing? If so, when exactly? Was Martin Callinan's phone officially reported missing? If so, when exactly? I am given to understand that Nóirín O'Sullivan used a second personal phone, known as the "off-site" phone, for some Garda business. Has this phone been sought or has she lost it too?

More than 1,200 people at 100 sampling points in all constituencies were asked last Tuesday and Wednesday, before the story of the missing phones broke, whether Nóirín O'Sullivan should resign. A total of 57% said she should resign, 23% said she should not, while 19% expressed no opinion. This means that nearly three out of every four who expressed an opinion said that she should go. The people who are policed by An Garda Síochána, the people who pay their wages, have spoken decisively on this issue. The Government's failure to act reveals a huge democratic deficit on policing and threatens to open up a crisis of legitimacy for An Garda Síochána.

There has been lots of talk this week about legacy. This is all part of the Taoiseach's legacy and it is far from perfect. Is the Taoiseach going to continue to keep the Garda Commissioner in her position and allow the further undermining of the Charleton tribunal?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The central point the Deputy makes is that the Government has failed to act on this issue but I disagree. I believe that Mr. Justice Charleton is the most appropriate person to carry out the required investigation. He has already adopted an absolutely no-nonsense approach to dealing with the business before him. He has set out the timelines, the strategy and the focus of public hearings. Deputy Barry has come into this House with a report from a journalist that a phone is missing that was in the possession of the Garda Commissioner. I do not know whether that is true or whether it is an allegation that stands up but I expect that Mr. Justice Charleton will find out the truth of that. He has already pointed out that public hearings on this matter will take place in July. Obviously he is a person of long experience, having worked on the Morris tribunal and having dealt with matters as complex as this in the past. He is the very best person to deal with the matter. I reject the Deputy's assertion that the Government has not done anything about this. The Government has set up a full formal commission of investigation under a very competent sole member to deal with the matter. The terms of reference of the tribunal are comprehensive and Mr. Justice Charleton will not stand on ceremony in getting to the truth of the issue. I would be loath to accept what the Deputy has said because I do not have any idea whether it is true. It is an allegation and a report. I would much prefer to leave the determination of the facts and the truth to Mr. Justice Charleton. I have every faith that he will discharge his duties and responsibilities to the utmost level of satisfaction.

Comment on this

Perhaps the Taoiseach might ask the Garda Commissioner about the phone, try to establish the position and then let the House know. On the question of legacy, the Taoiseach will want part of his legacy to be the speech where he criticised the church and mentioned, among other things, the Magdalen laundries. The Magdalen laundries of this day and age are the direct provision centres. What has happened there, on the Taoiseach's watch, has been nothing short of a scandal.

Comment on this

Deputy, it is well established that on Leaders' Questions you pose a question on one topic, and any subsequent questions are on the same topic. To introduce the Magdalen laundries or other matters-----

Comment on this

The topic relates to the legacy of the Taoiseach.

Comment on this

No. Your topic clearly related to the matters before Mr. Justice Charleton at present.

Comment on this

I want to ask the Taoiseach about news that broke as we came into the Chamber. It relates to the issue of asylum seekers.

Comment on this

No. It is not in order.

Comment on this

It is a third issue.

Comment on this

Deputy Barry, will you stick with the topic you raised? It might not be in order either, but you raised it anyway.

Comment on this

Are you saying it is not in order?

Comment on this

Since you have already raised the Charleton inquiry and issues pertinent to that inquiry, if you have a further question on that, it will be accepted.

Comment on this

I had wished to ask the Taoiseach about the news that broke at lunchtime regarding the asylum seekers.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is a separate issue.

Comment on this

This is a really serious ruling from the Supreme Court.

Comment on this

Of course it is, but it is not-----

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is a separate issue.

Comment on this

It is a separate issue.

Comment on this

Okay. I will ask the Taoiseach about it outside the forum of Leaders' Questions.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy may do so if he wishes.

Comment on this

Fine. Thank you, Deputy Barry.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I will answer the Deputy's question. He knows quite well what he is doing in here. He wants to raise as many subjects as he can. That is his political business.

Comment on this

He will get no answers anyway.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As Deputy Barry knows, the Charleton tribunal made an interim report to the Clerk of the Dáil on 18 May last. In that report, the sole member outlined the parties who have been granted representation before the tribunal. They include Sergeant Maurice McCabe; Superintendent David Taylor, who is a former Garda press officer; the Garda Commissioner; and the former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan. According to the interim report, the Garda Commissioner and the former Garda Commissioner have agreed to waive privilege in respect of records in their possession. A slate of public hearings on this matter will be held in July of this year under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Charleton. That is the place where the accuracy, the veracity and the truth will be established. The matters presented here by Deputy Barry, on the basis of a journalist's report or whatever, will then be established beyond "Yea" or "Nay". I would much prefer to await the outcome of the deliberations under the direction of Mr. Justice Charleton than to rely on reports, the truth or otherwise of which I cannot stand over.

Comment on this

The Government has ignored many reports for long enough.

Comment on this