Budget priorities and bank tax treatment
Deputy McDonald criticised the Taoiseach's emphasis on balancing the books and challenged the tax treatment of AIB and banks, arguing revenue is being forgone. The Taoiseach defended the budget strategy, said spending is rising because of prior fiscal discipline, and insisted bank losses can be offset while a levy still applies.
If the relevant committee decides to extend the time for this from three to four minutes or whatever, that is a matter for it. However, I have to abide by the Standing Orders that are in place. I call Deputy McDonald, who I know will adhere to the three minutes. I simply remind her.
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Yesterday, the Taoiseach told us that his primary aim in budget 2018 is to balance the books. He expressed this as a priority - indeed almost as a virtue - in response to my question about the need to provide real investment in order to slash the crippling cost of child care in the State. Meanwhile, at yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, representatives from AIB told my colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty, that it will not pay any corporation tax for the next 20 years. A bank that is now profitable will pay no corporation tax - zip, zero, zilch. As the Taoiseach knows, AIB made a pre-tax profit of €814 million in the first six months of this year. The tax that is due on these profits is money that is badly needed to deal with the crises in our crumbling public services, not least those relating to health and mental health. However, we have a golden arrangement with the banks as a result of a legislative change introduced in 2014 under a previous Fine Gael-led Government with the assistance of the Labour Party and yet the Taoiseach talks about a tight fiscal space.
Is it any wonder that we have a tight fiscal space? After all the austerity, the cuts and the hardship that the Taoiseach's party visited on ordinary people, the banks are back in profit and are told that they are scot-free regarding their corporation tax obligations. This is happening at a time when families still struggle to keep the wolf from the door to pay their bills.
I find this a very strange way to go about balancing the books. I can only imagine what the 8,000 people deprived of a place to live will make of this or what the 494 patients who were on trolleys yesterday might make of this. This cosy tax-free deal for the banks really amounts to another bailout for them. Much like the Apple tax debacle, it emerges again that the Taoiseach's message to the corporate world is that it can keep the people's money and that he is prepared to tolerate citizens living in doorways and being sick and going without treatment. The Taoiseach's talk of a republic of opportunity is once again exposed as a sham. It is in reality a republic of opportunism where his Government dances to the tune of opportunistic bankers. I ask the Taoiseach to do the sums for us. I want him to tell us how much tax this State is forgoing from AIB under this sweetheart deal. I also want him to tell us how much this State will forgo over the next 20 years. Could he also inform us of the similar figures in the case of Bank of Ireland and other banks for this year and over the 20-year period?
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I compliment Deputy McDonald on a flawless delivery of her script. Pauses, intonation, everything was absolutely perfect as always. I hope she did not spend too much time practising it this morning.
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It is absolutely the case that our first priority for the budget in a few weeks' time is to balance the books and to do so for the first time in ten years. Why is that important? I spoke to a student audience this morning in Merrion Square about why it is important. This country currently carries a debt of approximately €200 billion a year. Contrary to some of the narrative out there, that is not because of bank bailouts. About €30 billion of that is as a consequence of bailouts. The vast majority of it is a consequence of deficit spending. There has been a huge amount of deficit spending by Governments since the foundation of the State. Because of that deficit spending, it costs us approximately €6 billion a year to service our debt. If Governments throughout Irish history had balanced the books we would have an extra €5 billion or €6 billion a year to spend on health, housing, education and everything else. That is why I intend to ensure that the first budget that I bring through as Taoiseach - the first budget brought through by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe - is one that balances the books, so we do not saddle children of the future with additional debt and we do not require politicians of the future to have to choose between debt service costs and improvements in services. There will be additional funding for public services in the budget. As I mentioned already, public spending will increase next year by about 3.5%.
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A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I wonder if the Taoiseach could answer my question.
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It is not a flawless answer.
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It is certainly not. He clearly needs a bit more practice.
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Public spending will increase next year by about 3.5%. That is an increase in spending of almost €2 billion. That is only possible because we did not implement the economic policies of Sinn Féin in the years gone by; we implemented policies that allowed jobs to be created and incomes to rise again.
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It sounds a lot like Enda's script. The Taoiseach should get a script of his own.
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That is exactly why it will be possible to increase spending on public services. I am happy to organise a briefing for Deputy McDonald and Deputy Pearse Doherty. The way tax works is that if one is a self-employed person, a farmer or a business and one has made losses in a previous year one can off-set them against future tax liabilities. The same thing applies to banks, for example. However, in order to ensure that we do get some revenues from banks we have introduced a specific bank levy, which is only applied to banks in order that we get revenues from them. Between now and 2021 the bank levy will bring in €750 million.
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To reassure the Taoiseach, our pre-budget submission also balances the books.
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But it makes different choices and those choices are about supporting communities and families and building public services. The Taoiseach's set of choices is very different to that. I asked him about tax forgone or lost this year and over the coming years and he did not answer that question.
I will try something novel here. I will answer the question for the Taoiseach if that is of assistance.
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Is that in the Deputy's script as well?
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AIB is carrying losses of €3 billion. Calculated out over 20 years, that is €150 million in tax forgone at a time when we desperately need more revenue. The reason the banks have this arrangement is that a Fine Gael Government decided to allow them to carry 100% of their losses and to write it off in that way. While that is the technicality of it, what matters here is the consequence. The consequence is that it is tax forgone. At the same time, the Taoiseach stands in the Chamber day in and day out, sheds crocodile tears and tells us how sorry he is, that he understands how awful it is but that he is terribly sorry because he does not have the resources.
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Can the Taoiseach respond and give us the figures for the Bank of Ireland please? How much are we forgoing for it?
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To answer the Deputy's question, and as I have explained, there is no tax forgone. Businesses that made losses in the past can offset those losses against future tax liabilities.
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Not the banks. Brian Lenihan introduced a law not to allow the banks to do that.
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The Taoiseach will have to read the script.
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This pattern is extraordinary. It happens every day. The people on these benches listen attentively to the questions, scripted or unscripted. We try to answer and we get-----
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The Taoiseach and his Deputies do not answer.
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They have to get on with misleading the Dáil.
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If the Taoiseach were completely truthful-----
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I will do my utmost to ensure that there are no interruptions. The Deputies might not like the answers but I have no control over that.
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It shows an innate contempt for democracy and free speech and it indicates the kind of society we might have if Sinn Féin ever got into power. In light of this type of behaviour, those in Sinn Féin would try to restrict free speech and restrict democracy if they were in power.
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We would actually answer questions.
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As I said, there is not tax forgone because businesses can offset previous losses against future tax liabilities. A change was made in 2014 for a good public policy reason. Banks were allowed to use those tax credits as part of their tier 1 capital ratio. That then allowed us to spend less money recapitalising the banks. It would have cost us another €3 billion at that time to recapitalise them otherwise. In order to ensure that we get revenues from banks, a levy was introduced.