Approximately 11,000 teachers have qualified since 2011 and are on pay scales lower than those of their colleagues who qualified prior to that year. Over the next 12 months, demographic pressures mean that another 5,000 teachers will enter this cohort. If the Government led by the Fine Gael Party sticks to its commitment under the confidence-and-supply agreement to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, that number will rise even higher. The public service pay stability agreement recently agreed by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions provides that an examination of the salary scale issues for new entrants to the public sector will take place within one year of the adoption of the agreement. As the House knows, the agreement has been roundly rejected by the INTO and the TUI and will be the subject of a ballot by members of the ASTI in the coming weeks.

The context here is a massive flight of young teachers to Dubai and other countries that are also recruiting Irish teachers. This is taking place against a background where we require teachers, particularly at second level but also at primary level, to be more qualified than ever before, with the attendant expense that goes with that. What is the timescale for the examination, under the public service stability agreement, of the salary scales of new entrants to the public sector in general and to teaching in particular, where a huge number of workers are affected?

When will the talks commence on this matter? What plans does the Government have to start this process? What plans does it have to show newly qualified teachers - they are becoming older as the years go by - a pathway so that they can get full pay scale equality with their more senior counterparts?

That is what we are looking for here. There has been a bit of devilment at times on the Government side with claims that somebody with more years’ experience gets more pay. This is not about pay but about pay scales. These teachers are on lower pay scales. It is having a hugely detrimental effect on morale in our schools and is massively contributing to the teacher shortage, an issue about which I have already suggested the Minister is not doing enough. I want answers from the Minister in the clearest possible terms which he and the Government have not yet given.

I thank Deputy Thomas Byrne for raising this issue. I can fully understand the pursuit by the teachers’ unions of this particular issue. I sat down with the teachers’ unions through the teacher conciliation service and we negotiated, under the Lansdowne Road agreement, substantial increase for newly qualified teachers. It represented increases of 15% and 22% under that agreement, closing 75% of the gap in the scale. Indeed, at the higher points in the scales, the two scales have been merged.

From January next year, a newly qualified teacher straight out of college will be recruited at €35,600 a year. That is competitive for a newly qualified graduate. The issue of new entrants that the Deputy raised arises not just for education, although the largest numbers of recruits in those difficult years were in education. It raises issues right across the entire public service. In terms of dealing with this issue, it was on the table at the public pay talks but an agreement was negotiated, which did not include a settlement of that issue. The €900 million assigned in those pay talks were assigned on a more general basis.

However, it was agreed in the pay negotiations that the issues of new entrant pay and those areas in the public service with difficulty in recruiting will be discussed through process in the agreement. Money has not been set aside in the agreement at this point for either of these issues, nor has a deadline been set for the conclusion of such discussions. However, this remains an issue of concern for the trade unions and the Government side. A forum where the issues can be discussed in greater detail has been set out. This is an indication of openness on the part of the Government to consider these issues.

We have to make decisions in the context of scarce resources, however. The Deputy knows that in education we have been able to employ over 5,000 additional teachers between last September and this September, along with 2,000 special needs assistants, SNAs. Those investments need to be accommodated. One is always weighing on the one side, the legitimate expectation of public service employees for more pay against the need to invest in services, particularly after a decade when it was extremely difficult to do so. We have to balance those two levels of expectation from the public. The public service pay agreement provides a framework within which we can do that. It has been agreed by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

As well as being rejected by the teachers’ unions individually.

The Minister failed to outline when this process will start. He said there were no deadlines as to its conclusion but he did not say when it will start. In a public press statement, the INTO is under the impression this will start soon. The agreement provides it will start in 12 months. Will the Minister say here when this process to discuss this issue will start? Teachers are entitled to know. They are working under sometimes difficult conditions and low morale.

Is the Minister at least prepared to concede that the Government supports the principle of equal pay scales for people, in this case teachers, who do the same job? Does he agree with his colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, or does he agree with his anonymous colleagues who said that her intervention was deeply unhelpful? The Minister must take a side. Whose side is he on? Is he on the side of what is just, fair and provided for in the agreement and is he prepared to set out when the process in that agreement will start?

The agreement is a cross-Government agreement involving the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. It provides that consideration of the issue of newly-qualified pay will occur within 12 months of the commencement of the agreement, so there is a deadline. Obviously, there will be discussions if some unions wish to move that, but an outer limit of 12 months has been set. That is clear.

As I indicated in my initial response, equality of treatment must be considered across the spectrum. We have a responsibility for children with special needs, for young people who are seeking access to apprenticeships and for investment needs across the education system. Every year we must provide for 15,000 additional school places - build and equip them and provide teachers and support in them. Our treatment of everyone in the public service must be fair and equal. They have expectations of us. We met the teachers' unions and negotiated an agreement which met three quarters of what was sought. It provides for an entry pay level for a newly-qualified teacher of €35,600 from next January. That is treating everybody who has a legitimate expectation of my Department in a fair and equal manner. Indeed, similar expectations occur in housing and health and they are the subject of debates in this House all the time. We must balance those issues and the Lansdowne Road agreement and its successor provide for that. It is a framework within which we can make the balances and choices that we believe are fair and equal to all who have legitimate expectations of us.