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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Justice Department emails and tribunal

Summary

Micheál Martin and the Taoiseach discuss Frances Fitzgerald’s resignation, the planned statement by the Justice Minister, and agreed follow-up measures including an external inquiry and oversight changes. The Taoiseach says the Government wants to correct the record and avoid another election.

I acknowledge that this is a difficult day for the Taoiseach and his colleagues, particularly Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. Everyone accepts that. Deputy Fitzgerald is a well-liked Member of the House and has had many achievements as a Minister to her credit. However, she took the right decision today, given recent revelations and the best interests of the country. No one in this House takes any pleasure from Deputy Fitzgerald's resignation as Tánaiste and Minister; rather, everyone must learn lessons, the most fundamental being the nature and quality of the relationship between this Parliament and Government. Democratic accountability to this House and transparency from Government are the foundations of our parliamentary democracy. They have been sadly missing in the past few weeks. Genuine issues were raised by the Opposition for over three weeks and were dismissed for far too long.

At the core of this has been the appalling mistreatment of Maurice McCabe by the institutions of the State. Every citizen has a stake in the vindication of his integrity and good name. We on this side of the House were instrumental in forcing the establishment of the Charleton inquiry as a public inquiry with public cross-examination simply because Maurice McCabe was no longer prepared to have any inquiry held behind closed doors and face trials again. It was at his insistence and our insistence to the former Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, that that happened on that occasion.

Deputy Kelly's parliamentary questions on this issue should have been answered. Every Deputy in this House has the absolute right and expectation that when questions are put to the Government and its Departments, no matter how sensitive, correct and honest answers are given. This is crucial. We have said this many times before and much of what the Taoiseach read out earlier is the fruit of our agreement and our discussions over the weekend about this issue. This has to be the nail in the coffin of secrecy and silos in the Department of Justice and Equality. Yes, there must be a fundamental change in the culture of that Department, but the Government must also take responsibility and take legitimate questioning by the Opposition, not as partisan grandstanding all the time. Over the past three weeks the Government has taken too dismissive an attitude to Opposition Members who raised very important and profound questions.

Every correction of the Dáil record, every non-answer and every answer to a question never asked only deepened suspicions and anxiety among Opposition Members about what was being hidden. In that context, will the Taoiseach confirm that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, will issue a statement to the House and apologise for the manner in which questions were answered?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I can confirm that arrangements are being made for the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, to make a statement to the House to apologise for the failure of his Department to answer questions fully in the past couple of weeks, to offer further assurance that questions which have not yet been answered will be answered in full and that in the future he will ensure, as will his Secretary General, questions are answered properly.

I am certainly not in any way happy about how the last couple of weeks have played out. Notwithstanding the enormous distraction this has been for the Government and the country, we did not have to end up in the situation we are in today. Had questions been answered properly and in full, I certainly would not have had to come into the House on two occasions to correct what I had said. The information I have given in the House has always been the full truth, or at least the truth as it was given to me. Second, had all of the questions been answered and the e-mails found and put in the public domain seven or ten days ago, I do not think it would have been necessary for the Tánaiste to tender her resignation this morning. It is a very sorry state of affairs that has occurred in the past week or two. That is, of course, why last week I ordered the trawl of all documents in the Department of Justice and Equality, which is why the additional e-mails came to light last week and in the past couple of days. It is also why I ordered the progress report on the implementation of the Toland reforms, which was published last night and shows which reforms have been implemented and which have yet to be implemented. I will ensure the report is fully implemented in the period ahead.

At the heart of all of this, on a day like today, is the human cost, not just the human cost to Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, her family, friends and colleagues but also, of course, the human cost to Detective Sergeant Maurice McCabe and his family who, once again, are in the spotlight of public attention and seeing their pictures on the front pages of the newspapers through no fault of their own.

I hope that answers Deputy Micheál Martin's question.

Comment on this

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. It is welcome that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, will be coming before the Dáil to issue a statement. The external inquiry on which the Taoiseach and I agreed into why the documents that have now emerged were never sent to the Charleton inquiry has to happen. We must also ensure the external oversight group on which we agreed, which is to set about changing, rapidly and urgently, management structures within the Department of Justice and Equality, will happen very quickly. These are two key issues that go to the heart of democratic accountability and on which the Taoiseach and I are in agreement. We also agreed that where Deputies had relevant questions or concerns about this entire issue which they wished to put via parliamentary questions, this facility would be made available to them by the Minister and the Government to make sure any outstanding issue would be dealt with quickly. In addition, as I said, we need to look at the structures and the quality of the engagement between Parliament and the Government in terms of parliamentary questions and replies.

The Taoiseach and I agreed on Friday, when we met for the first time to discuss this matter, that neither of us wanted to have a general election. We both worked genuinely to avoid that reality, notwithstanding the very different positions we had on this issue. Our positions on Brexit have always been aligned in terms of the national interest. That will continue and we will continue to facilitate the workings of government in the coming months and beyond in line with the confidence and supply agreement to ensure the country will have the necessary stability to meet the very fundamental challenges that are facing the nation.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I will add to that by acknowledging that Deputy Micheál Martin, as leader of Fianna Fáil, and the Fianna Fáil Party engaged in good faith with me and the Government over the weekend in our efforts to avert an unnecessary general election. Both parties were always of the view that an election should be avoided if it could be.

I regret that it necessitated the resignation of a very good person this morning but that ultimately was her decision, and ultimately that was what was required to avoid us going to the country tomorrow.

Turning to the other matters that we discussed over the weekend, the justice reforms will all be done and implemented. This includes an opportunity being given to Deputies to sit down with the senior officials in the Department to ask, face to face, exactly the questions they are asking so that answers can be given to them. As is the case in other Departments, a dedicated service or hotline will be set up in the Department of Justice and Equality which people can contact if they are not satisfied with the replies they are getting. This service already exists for matters related to social protection and health, and some other Departments. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, proposes to introduce that service for the Department of Justice and Equality also.

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