General election and tribunal row
Richard Boyd Barrett attacks the Government for handling the crisis to avoid an election and says the House should still question the matter, while the Ceann Comhairle repeatedly rules out a points-of-order debate. The Taoiseach says he acted to avoid an unnecessary election, confirms the Justice Minister will make a statement, and says he ordered the document trawl because he had to correct the record.
There is, no doubt, relief among ordinary people across the country that the Taoiseach did not inflict a general election on them in the face of the pressures - often very serious financial pressures - they face in the run-up to Christmas, to gain some cynical political advantage which I think was part of his calculations in how he dealt with this unfolding crisis. How else can he explain that, right up until the last minute, he protected the former Minister for Justice and Equality, even though he knew over the weekend that the Tánaiste had misled the Dáil about the extent of her knowledge of an absolutely foul smear campaign against Maurice McCabe?
This place never ceases to amaze me. I have just come from the Business Committee. Given the scale of events unfolding around us, in which we have lost a Minister and Tánaiste over the revelations that she misled the Dáil and with serious questions hanging over the current Minister for Justice and Equality over why he did not inform the Taoiseach of the extent of the knowledge within the Department at the time about the campaign against Maurice McCabe, and the questions the Taoiseach has to answer on why he protected the Tánaiste until the very last minute when it was politically unsustainable for anything to happen other than that she step down, I proposed that the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, and the former Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, come to the House to answer questions. There was a complete conspiracy of silence at the Business Committee. My request for questions to be taken on all the unanswered questions was opposed across the board. It was even suggested, incredibly, that the Taoiseach should not even take Leaders' Questions today, though there was a quick backing down from this suggestion.
The Taoiseach is trying to close the can of worms that has been opened on this scandal and Fianna Fáil is colluding with him, which is absolutely outrageous as so many questions remain unanswered. If information that should have been given to Mr. Justice Charleton was not given, who else in the Government at the time knew what Deputy Frances Fitzgerald and the rest of the Department knew? Did the Cabinet sub-committee on justice reform know about it? Did it deliberate on it? Is there other information in other ministries or memos on this matter that has not been handed over to Mr. Justice Charlton? Why did the Government and Fianna Fáil continue to defend Noreen O'Sullivan right up to the end, given that people in the Government knew that she had this knowledge of the smear campaign against Sergeant Maurice McCabe? It is absolutely extraordinary. We do not want to have a general election before Christmas because the people do not want to have one inflicted on them, but how can anybody have confidence in the Government, given its handling of this issue? The people certainly need to have a general election to get rid of the Government as soon as possible in the new year.
Comment on this
The Deputy referred to this morning's meeting of the Business Committee. To make it very clear to the membership, when he raised that matter, as he did very strongly this morning, it was pointed out that the reason such a debate could not be facilitated was Standing Order 59 explicitly prohibited such a debate. It states a matter shall not be raised in such a manner as it appears to be an attempt by the Dáil to encroach on the functions of the courts or a judicial tribunal. We are all aware that Mr. Justice Charlton issued a very clear and unambiguous statement on 24 November, in which he set out the work to be considered and undertaken by the tribunal, beginning in early January. The Deputy was also advised at the meeting that if he wanted to have the debate, he could do so either by changing the Standing Order, something that is open to the House, or by tabling a substantive motion.
Comment on this
On a point of order-----
Comment on this
There is.
Comment on this
It is about Ministers.
Comment on this
It is a point of order.
Comment on this
It is not convenient.
Comment on this
The Ceann Comhairle has just raised a point of order. I want to raise one.
Comment on this
Seriously-----
Comment on this
The Ceann Comhairle should outline my response to the points made at the Business Committee.
Comment on this
I also pointed out that Deputy Frances Fitzgerald had come in here last week and answered questions which had not been considered to infringe on the competency of the tribunal. If it happened last week, it can happen this week.
Comment on this
It is not a Standing Order but grandstanding.
Comment on this
Not for the first time the Deputy's question is a little confused. He started by saying how pleased he was the people would not have to tolerate a general election before Christmas and finished by saying we needed to have one as soon as possible; therefore, it is a little hard to reply to questions of that nature.
Comment on this
I did not request that I not take Leaders' Questions today. If anybody made that request, it certainly did not come from me. I am here two days a week to answer questions for the best part of three hours. I am happy to do so and will continue to do so.
Comment on this
The humility shown here today is astounding.
Comment on this
I will continue to do so for as long as I hold this office. It was never and will never be my intention to plunge the country into an unnecessary general election. I did everything I could over the weekend and in the past few days to ensure that would not be the case because we have a lot of work to do as a Government, not least with phase one and phase two of the Brexit talks coming up. The country does not need to find itself in a situation where we would have a caretaker Government, potentially for three or four months, during that very important period. As I have always said, I will do my best to make the Government work and last.
To answer the Deputy's question, I regret the fact that the former Tánaiste offered her resignation this morning but she did so for all of the right reasons. I did not seek it; she offered it of her own volition.
She did so for the reasons I outlined in my statement, namely, in the interests of the country and the good governance of this country.
To ensure that the date on which the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, was informed of the first controversial email and the date that I saw it are correct on the record, the Secretary General of the Department told the Minister on Monday, 13 November, that he was going to retire. The Minister was also informed of the existence of a document on that date, at which point he said it should be sent to the tribunal right away. Both he and I saw it for the first time on 20 November, one week later.
Comment on this
This is the establishment trying to put the lid back on the can of worms that has been opened. It is quite extraordinary. It was perfectly okay for the former Tánaiste to come to the House last week and for us to ask questions about these matters. There was no problem with the Charleton tribunal, although there had been some suggestions previous to that, mainly from the Government, that there might be. It turned out that there was not. Now, because Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have decided to put a lid on this matter, suddenly legalese is being used to justify saying that we cannot ask questions as to why the Taoiseach protected the former Tánaiste at the weekend when he was in possession of the knowledge that she had misled the Dáil about the extent of her knowledge and that of her Department of the smear campaign against Maurice McCabe. Incidentally, we now also know that she did not get legal advice from the Attorney General at that time, which was her excuse for not acting on the information that this smear campaign was being conducted against Maurice McCabe at the O'Higgins commission. I do not buy these legal covers for the Government now trying to run away from the questions that hang over the Taoiseach and the current Minister for Justice and Equality in the context of his stance and his failure to disclose the information that he had about this matter and in respect of the questions that still remain for the former Tánaiste.
Comment on this
It is absolutely extraordinary. Just to conclude-----
Comment on this
The people of this country did not want an election inflicted on them before Christmas. The Taoiseach discovered that at the weekend. We all know that. However, that is not an excuse for these questions not being answered.
Comment on this
After the way the Taoiseach has handled this matter, his legitimacy and that of the Government have been shredded. The people need an alternative Government.
Comment on this
First, I did not discover it at the weekend. I spoke with Deputy Micheál Martin by telephone on Wednesday and Thursday, and we met on Friday, before the weekend, in our efforts-----
Comment on this
Even earlier.
Comment on this
-----to avert an unnecessary general election. It is the Deputy and his fellow travellers who are continuing to demand an election. We in the two large parties in the House managed to avoid that. Again, the Deputy is accusing me of not coming to the House to answer questions. What am I doing now other than standing here and answering questions put to me by the Deputy? The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, is willing to make a statement and arrangements are being made for him to do that.
Comment on this
That is not what was said at the Business Committee.
Comment on this
As in the normal course of events, either he will take questions after that or he will take questions as Minister for Justice and Equality, as he does on a routine basis.
Comment on this
When is he making it?
Comment on this
Of course, there will also be questions on promised legislation later and tomorrow as well.
To answer the Deputy's other question, I ordered the trawl of documents because I had to come to the House twice to correct the record as I had not received full information from the Department of Justice and Equality. I ordered the trawl that allowed these documents to be found and I put them in the public domain on Monday.
Comment on this
Why did the Minister not order it?
Comment on this
I received an interim report on Saturday. I wanted to see what was in the interim report and I wanted to talk to the former Tánaiste about the content of those emails. More than that, I wanted to end the drip, drip of information, emails and email threads emerging day after day. That is the reason I waited until I had the full report on Monday. When I had it, we put it in the public domain within hours. Had the Department of Justice and Equality done that many weeks or months ago, we would not be in this sorry situation today.