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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions (Resumed)

Brexit and Northern Ireland talks

Summary

Deputy Ryan asks whether public commentary on the negotiations was helpful and how the Taoiseach engaged with unionist leaders. The Taoiseach says he stayed silent on Monday and argues that all Northern parties should see texts at the same time, rather than being excluded from the process.

We are running substantially over time.

Comment on this

I was involved in negotiating the creation of an all-island electricity market with Ms Arlene Foster and Mr. Nigel Dodds. I mention this because of the lessons that were learned. We got the market over the line by saying nothing in public, by building trust and by doing the work behind the scenes. Does the Taoiseach regret that we were not slightly quieter and that we did not say less on Monday? Did our commentary throughout the day aggravate the difficult circumstances that were playing out? What did the Taoiseach say to Ms Foster that day in Enniskillen or subsequently? Did he set out the broad approach that we were following with our European partners?

The second lesson from the energy market process was that we got it over the line because we were committed to working east-west as well as North-South. Similarly, there is some agreement in the Brexit talks. I listened to Mr. David Davis, the UK's Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, saying something yesterday that every Member of the House of Commons in Westminster said, namely, that the UK was seeking a regulatory alignment that would apply to all of it. Yesterday, the Taoiseach articulated that that was the first default position. Some sort of trade deal that would avoid a border with friction, be it east-west or North-South, would be delivered, although the Lord knows how.

The Taoiseach stated that, failing this, the second option would be a technological solution. We do not know what that would be, but we would be willing for the UK Government to propose ideas. That is a concession, given that there are no specifics.

As I understand it, the key element of the text related to something that the Government was seeking and on which we received agreement, namely, if those two options failed, there would be a backstop guarantee to the effect that, in the absence of agreed solutions, the UK would ensure full alignment with the rules of the Single Market and customs union and protect the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement.

This morning in London, the British Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Mr. Boris Johnson, stated that the Border issue could "only be discovered in the context" of the second phase of the negotiations and that we should grate on through. On Question Time, the Prime Minister of Britain is making a cast iron commitment that it will leave the customs union and Single Market.

Is the Taoiseach's backline issue that, at the Council meeting on Thursday of next week, he will apply a veto to the talks progressing to the second phase if that backstop guarantee, which is not necessarily our desired solution or, as the Taoiseach stated yesterday, a nationalist grab, but is rather about trying to protect both communities on either side of the Border, is not given? Is that the key element that would stop the Taoiseach from allowing the talks going to phase two? Will the Taoiseach apply a veto or, if not, what is the way out of the impasse that has opened up before us?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy very much. He will appreciate that this is still an evolving situation and it would be unwise and undiplomatic of me to answer his question as fully as I might like to in this Chamber, given that many people are paying attention to what we say here, and not just in this country.

Regarding last Monday, if the Deputy checks the record, he will see that I actually said nothing at all all day. I maintained a studied silence throughout Monday. The press conference, which I had arranged for 2.30 p.m. Irish time and choreographed for 3.30 p.m. Brussels time after the lunch was supposed to finish, was deferred precisely for that reason. I only spoke that evening after things had gone awry in Brussels.

I was in Enniskillen for the entire day, as the Deputy knows, on 11 or 12 November attending the events there, visiting the local hospital, speaking at the Royal British Legion and also having a bilateral meeting with Ms Foster, where we discussed, of course, all of these matters and the future.

It is important, though, to remind the House that this is a structured negotiation. We are not negotiating with a political party in the North, in Britain or anywhere else. This is a structured negotiation - on the one side the EU task force, led by Mr. Michel Barnier and into which we have a very strong input, and, on the other side, the UK Government. This is how this will be concluded. We are in a much stronger position being part of the European negotiating team and being represented by the task force as a Union of 27 countries and 440 million people negotiating with the UK than we would be in some sort of trilateral negotiation involving the Irish Government, the British Government and one of the parties in Northern Ireland. We are not going to do that. We are going to continue to negotiate as we have been up until now.

It is important to bear one thing in mind. I would like to quote something said in the House of Commons yesterday by a British MP or, rather, an MP from Northern Ireland who is British, Lady Sylvia Hermon, who is a unionist MP from North Down.

She stated:

Although I readily accept that there are 10 duly elected DUP Members in this House, nevertheless the DUP does not speak for or represent all the people of Northern Ireland. Will the Secretary of State therefore take a few moments to explain to the House, and particularly all of the people of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, the benefits to the whole country of the proposals the Prime Minister took to Brussels yesterday?

We should remember that there are many voices in Northern Ireland. Even some unionist voices are very much behind the proposals taken to Brussels in recent days. We need to listen to all voices and parties in Northern Ireland, not just one.

Comment on this

I accept that the Taoiseach cannot answer the latter part of my question. I accept the import of what he said about having to conduct business in private to a certain extent. In my first question I referred to our relationship with the North. I agree with the Taoiseach that it is vital for us to maintain good relationships with the unionist community in the North which we have built in the past 20 years, as difficult as that is on a day-to-day basis. I would love to see the Assembly return to help that process, but we also need to play our part. I agree that we do not want to get into a trilateral debate in the talks. However, at some point the Taoiseach will have to pick up the telephone to talk to Arlene Foster. Does he have plans to do so? In recent days she seemed to indicate that the DUP had been completely outside the loop for five weeks and did not know what the text or structure was. Surely in Enniskillen or at other meetings we have had on an ongoing basis during that five-week period we broadly outlined the strategy and the backstop guarantees for which we were looking, but that is history. The key question is where we do go from here to try to restore good relations North and South. Whenever the Brexiteers sail off to a future on the Cayman Islands, we will be left together on this island and have to try to work, co-operate and build trust and relationships together. How does the Taoiseach think we can do that?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I have a slightly different view from the Deputy. I think it would be appropriate for all parties to see the text at the same time. Obviously, the European Commission, with our involvement, negotiates on one side, with the UK Government on the other. At the point at which texts are being shared with political parties, I do not see why the Green Party which operates North and South should not see the text at the same time as Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil and the DUP. We should listen to all parties in Northern Ireland and not accept the idea which seems to be gaining prevalence in some parts of London and perhaps other places that there is only one party in Northern Ireland which speaks for everybody there.

I intend to speak to the Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May, in the coming days. The Prime Minister of the Netherlands, Mr. Mark Rutte, is coming here today to meet me. There will, of course, be ongoing contacts at European level. As has been the case, the negotiations will happen between the Commission task force on the one side and the UK Government on the other. It is now the role of the United Kingdom to come back to us. I understand the Prime Minister is managing difficult issues. There are different views within her party on Brexit and she also has to manage a confidence and supply agreement with the DUP. I accept that she wants to come to an agreement and is acting in good faith. I want to give her time to speak to her party and partners in the confidence and supply agreement before we move things forward. I restate that it is the desire, ambition and wish of the Government to move to the phase 2 talks. We want to move to phase 2 and approve that move next Thursday and Friday in Brussels because it is in our interests to move to phase 2. That is when we will talk about the transition period we need in order that individuals and businesses will be able to prepare for long-term changes. It is also when we will talk about the new trading arrangements which will be so important for Irish importers and exporters, the agrifood industry and anyone whose job in Ireland depends on trade with Britain. We want to move to phase 2, but if that is not possible next week, given the problems which have arisen, we can pick it up in the new year. I have received confirmation from the Commission which is meeting now that we stand by the text which had been agreed to on Monday.

Comment on this