Community employment, CE, schemes have transformed rural towns and villages throughout the country and given exceptional support to charitable groups and organisations. They worked extremely well for years until the Government started tinkering with them, constantly changing the rules and regulations to such an extent that their future is being put in jeopardy. Sponsors are being scared off by the increasingly demanding conditions being placed on them, on the supervisors they employ to run these schemes and on participants. We saw evidence of this in Galway city earlier this year when a project which provided valuable experience was closed by the sponsoring group. This was probably not the first - it certainly will not be the last - sponsor to pull out of a CE scheme or decide against opting into one because of the barriers that are placed in the way of the schemes.

While this Government and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection claim to be supportive of the work being done through CE schemes, their actions suggest otherwise. The only satisfied party involved is the Department. The time participants are allowed to spend on schemes and the amount of training involved have both been reduced. Costs have risen but cuts to the budget for materials have not been restored. This has resulted in a fall in productivity of the schemes. It also means that there is no sustainability of service. CE schemes are among the few subventions the State offers to voluntary groups, whose sustainability often depends on the work being carried out by the participants on the scheme. The constant changing of work practices of participants and supervisors and the obligations of sponsors have diminished the appeal of these schemes for everyone. It is funny that the Department should constantly trot out the line that the people taking part in these schemes are not employed by it. In doing so, it can keep them at arm's length. However, it is the Department which keeps laying down new demands on how the schemes should be run.

I would like to pay special tribute to the supervisors, who are the linchpins of the schemes.

Hear, hear.

Many voluntary sponsoring groups and sponsoring chairmen are largely unaware of the full responsibility being placed on them because of the efficiency of the supervisors in looking after all aspects of the schemes. The Department does not seem to acknowledge the vast amount of work being undertaken by supervisors, and how constantly changing procedures and requirements make this role extremely difficult. This group of people do not have pensions or contracts of indefinite duration and have had no pay increases in the past ten years despite Labour Court recommendations. The benchmarking procedure relating to them has been abandoned and there has been a long, drawn-out process regarding pensions. The latter are currently being examined by the community sector high-level forum. Having spoken with a number of supervisors, I know that they do not hold out any great hope of a positive outcome in the context of the forum's consideration of the pensions issue.

Will the Taoiseach acknowledge the tremendous work being done by CE schemes and ensure that the Department rights a wrong for supervisors by providing them with proper contracts, a pay increase and pension rights, which are long overdue?

I join Deputy Grealish in acknowledging the value of CE schemes. As Deputies, we are all familiar with them in our constituencies. As a former Minister for Social Protection, I am very familiar with them. I am also aware of the fact that the CE system was established by my party many decades ago. That is something of which we are very proud. Having established CE-----

Is the Taoiseach talking about CE schemes? They were established by former Deputy Ruairí Quinn.

I do not believe Deputy Howlin is correct.

I am. Community employment was piloted in Wexford.

The strategic communications unit is really working overtime.

The Taoiseach claims everything.

I will double check. We were certainly in government at the time in any event. It started off as a different scheme, called social employment, and then became community employment.

CE has huge value. It has a dual value in that it provides employment and training opportunities for people, and also provides important community services as well. The number of people on CE schemes stands at 21,956. That is down by approximately 2% on last year, which makes sense when the economy is growing, when there is more employment and when there are fewer people who are unemployed. As unemployment goes up and employment falls, the numbers increase.

On the issue of the CE supervisors, I am advised that they have been seeking, through their trade unions, the allocation of Exchequer funding to implement a Labour Court recommendation which was issued on 22 July 2008 relating to the provision of a pension scheme. The CE scheme supervisors are not employees of the State or the Government. They are employees of private companies in some cases and of community and voluntary sector bodies in others. The taxpayer, therefore, is not responsible for funding the pensions of such employees, even when the companies involved are reliant on State funding for their operations. The same would apply, for example, to commercial entities that do work for the State, to individual contractors who do work for the State and to semi-State companies as well. As the Deputy will know, Labour Court findings are made in respect of employers. As the employer in this instance was not the State-----

It is cheap labour.

-----the Labour Court finding was made not-----

It is very hard to answer questions in this House sometimes.

Yes, when one talks rubbish.

We know that.

As the Labour Court finding applies to the employer, and the State is not the employer, the Labour Court finding does not apply to the State. One thing that the Government and the House must always do is look out for taxpayers and respect them. If we were to take on the pension liabilities of people who are not public servants and who work for voluntary or private bodies, the impact on and the liability for the taxpayer would be very great indeed.

I totally disagree with the Taoiseach. The CE schemes do tremendous work. These schemes would not be in operation if it were not for the supervisors. The supervisors on CE schemes run by certain local authorities, including Galway City Council, and Údarás na Gaeltachta have full pension rights. The Taoiseach must solve this issue. The supervisors are employed through the CE schemes. However, those schemes are administered by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, which, in turn, is controlled by the Government. The Department constantly imposes rules and regulations on these schemes and tells those involved how they should be run. New procedures are being brought in every week and the supervisors have to implement them. Those people are entitled to absolutely nothing when they retire. I know one supervisor who cannot even get a mortgage in view of the pittance he is being paid.

The Taoiseach must right this wrong. The supervisors should be brought under the remit of the Department. They should be entitled to pensions and should be put on proper contracts of work. I ask that the Taoiseach intervene personally in order to resolve this issue as a matter of urgency.

Hear, hear.

The same would apply to many fields of endeavour, many businesses and lots of work. There are many examples of where the Government sets the rules and regulations and designs the contract. However, that does not mean that the Government is then required to cover the pension liabilities of the people who work for the relevant body-----

These people are doing the Government's work.

-----or company.

What happens when the supervisors pull out? Who is going to do all the work then?

It is always open to individuals to make provision for their pensions-----

That is a disgraceful comment.

-----by paying into a pension fund or a personal retirement savings account, PRSA, and that, of course, is what public servants do. If one is a teacher or a civil servant and one works for the public service, one makes contributions to the public pension fund.

So do employers.

Deputies may be aware that this issue is currently being examined by the community sector high level forum, which is chaired by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

The Departments of Employment Affairs and Social Protection; Health; Education and Skills; and Housing, Planning and Local Government are represented in this group, as are Pobal, SIPTU and IMPACT. The forum last met on 23 November 2017 and a paper outlining the costs was presented. The unions have agreed to review the paper and revert on it as soon as possible. Following on from this, a meeting will be arranged between the trade unions and Deputy Donohoe as the Minister for Finance. It is important to point out that community employment scheme supervisors may qualify for a State pension, either means tested or contributory.