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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions (Resumed)

Consent and rape trial concerns

Summary

Deputy Coppinger raised concerns from the Rape Crisis Centre about how rape trials are conducted and asked about consent and reporting. The Tánaiste said the Government took the issue seriously, noted the Belfast trial was in another jurisdiction, and pointed to the 2017 Act’s statutory definition of consent and related sex education coverage.

Yesterday the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre stated it was concerned about the way in which trials for rape are conducted. It fears that victims will now be further deterred from reporting rape. The statement also referred to the "opening up [of] a wider debate on the meaning of rape and the meaning of consent". Does the Government share those concerns? Arising from events yesterday, can there now be a transformation in this whole issue and how we relate to it? The much publicised case highlighted what rape is. It is sex without consent. Consent should be looked for. It should be actively sought and not assumed. Submission is not consent. Is there any other crime where a person is expected to yell, shout or ask for help to prove he or she did not consent to something? A person may be frozen. All of these are normal and real responses. They are not consent. Consent should involve active agreement between two people. Anything less is not acceptable.

We need to challenge the attitudes and the sexist culture that is leading to these views being held. Does the Government agree that such a conversation is now needed in Irish society and that it could start among the young? If so, is the Government now willing to fund a sex education programme in our schools, where the issue of consent is at its very core? Does the Government now agree that we need to look at sexual crime in this State, and to spend the money needed to conduct another report along the lines of the sexual abuse and violence in Ireland, SAVI, report into its scale? Does the Government agree that if we are really worried about the low level of reporting of rape, measures must be taken to make the process easier for victims?

We must end the average waiting time of 33 months before a case will get to court. What level of fortitude do we expect from rape victims? We have to give representation to victims to help them deal with such an adversarial court process. How is it acceptable for a complainant's clothes to be passed around the jury as evidence of their consent? How is the sexual experience of any complainant relevant and why is it brought up in more than a third of cases in the Irish State? Why has the Government not acted on provisions on sections of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017, which would afford vulnerable witnesses and children protection against adversarial cross-examination, for example through video-link? Consent was defined in that Act. Many of us lobbied for it to be defined in it. However, no training has yet been given to judges, lawyers or even juries.

As we speak, people are gathering in cities and towns around this State. They are gathering in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Carlow and all over the State to stand with victims of rape and sexual assault at 12.30 p.m.

The protests arise from the #MeToo movement and the culture it has generated among young people. Is the Government going to take this as seriously as the people who are gathering?

Comment on this
Simon Coveney The Tánaiste Fine Gael

I can assure the Deputy that the Government is taking this issue very seriously. It is almost impossible not to have noticed, read about or listened to descriptions of a trial that was taking place in Belfast in recent weeks. That came to a head yesterday when it concluded. It raises many concerns at all sorts of levels but it is important to reinforce, for anybody listening today, the point that the trial was in a different jurisdiction. It would not and could not have developed in this jurisdiction in the way it did. Therefore, it is important for us all to reassure victims of sexual abuse in Ireland that, while we need to focus all the time on improving our legal and judicial systems, their approach is very different from that taken by the courts in Belfast in recent weeks. In this jurisdiction, for example, there is a legal prohibition on the identification of a rape accused before conviction. The public, although not the press, is excluded from the court from hearings. There is also a very strong protection of the victim. There is clear punishment, with a maximum sentence of up to three years, for breaking the law in that area.

We have sought to introduce legislation to ensure that we try to protect victims of sexual abuse and ensure that, when there are court hearings, the anonymity of people who are being accused and, of course, people taking cases is protected. Even after a trial, a victim's anonymity is protected. We need to send a signal out that we should not be drawing conclusions about what might happen here from what happened in a different jurisdiction if people are brave enough to come forward. There is undoubtedly a chill factor that comes from the coverage we have seen of the trial we witnessed in recent weeks. As policymakers, we need to respond to that and make sure there is an appropriate response here, but we also need to point out that this is a different jurisdiction from the North and we need to be careful we do not draw parallels between two court systems.

Comment on this

The only difference in the two jurisdictions is the fact that the defendants were named and the trial was so public. Certainly, that led to very salacious reporting by the media, which militated against the complainant. There is no question about that. All the other elements are exactly the same.

On "The Tonight Show" last night, a solicitor made the point that 80% of rapes are not even reported, and 5% of cases get to court. Of those 5%, only 19% result in successful prosecutions. Where it is contested, the rate is only 7%. Unfortunately, the Tánaiste did not answer my central question, on the issue of consent between people. That is what was contested in the case in question and in most cases.

Is the Government willing to initiate an education programme and a discussion in society and put the money behind them? The British Government, for example, initiated a rape awareness campaign where people were encouraged to ensure consent had been actively sought. This is a considerable and pressing issue in society. I estimate that there will be thousands of people protesting today. This matter is taken very seriously by this generation.

Comment on this
Simon Coveney The Tánaiste Fine Gael

It is taken seriously by us, too, I can assure the Deputy.

Comment on this
Simon Coveney The Tánaiste Fine Gael

Yes. The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 did introduce a statutory definition of consent to a sexual act. It states a person does not consent to a sexual act if he or she allows that act to take place due to the application of force or threat, or the use of force. There is a series of detailed definitions to respond to the concern the Deputy rightly raised today. Of course, we need to assess the definition and ensure it is sufficient.

With regard to sex education, the Deputy has proposed legislation in this area. It is important to say that consent is explicitly covered as part of the curriculum for both junior and senior cycles in post-primary schools today. That does not mean we are doing enough on sex education; I do not believe we are. In fact, one of the ancillary commitments in regard to the debate on the eighth amendment is that the State will put more money into sex education. We will do that. Regardless of what happens in the referendum, I suspect we will do that as a Government. I am sure the Minister concerned will happily work with the Deputy on the ideas she has in this area. I assure her that resources will not be the issue in trying to improve sex education in Irish schools.

Comment on this