We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Tuam mother and baby home remains

Summary

Deputy McDonald pressed for action after human remains were found at Tuam, calling it a national shame. The Taoiseach welcomed the Government’s humanitarian forensic approach, praised campaigners and Catherine Corless, and said the Bon Secours contribution was not a settlement but an initial payment toward the work.

It is almost two years since the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes outlined details of excavations carried out at the site of the former mother and baby home in Tuam, County Galway, which discovered a significant quantity of human remains. From what we know, the bodies buried there are those of children and babies aged up to the three years old who were unceremoniously buried without anything to identify them or their last resting place. It is a cause of national shame.

Yesterday the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, announced that a forensic excavation of the site will now take place. I commend the Minister and the Government on that decision because it is significant and to be welcomed. I acknowledge today the tireless work of Catherine Corless, of the survivors, of their families and loved ones, of all of those who care for those who were buried on the site, and of the campaigners who have supported them in their long pursuit of justice. Without them yesterday's decision would not have been taken.

I have a number of questions relating to what was announced yesterday which I wish to put to the Taoiseach. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, has said that specific legislation will be required before the excavation can commence but, as of yet, she has not given any timeframe for when that legislation might be considered. Will the Taoiseach clarify for the Dáil when that legislation will come before us? We also require clarity in respect of costs. The cost of the forensic excavation has been estimated at between €6 million and €13 million. Catherine Corless said this morning that it is in fact likely to cost significantly more than that. From where did the announced estimate come? How will the excavation be funded?

It was announced yesterday that the religious order which ran the mother and baby home in Tuam, the Bon Secours Sisters, will contribute €2.5 million to the cost of the excavation. I put it to the Taoiseach that the order bears at least an equal responsibility to that of the State in respect of this scandal and should pay significantly more on that basis.

I commend the Minister for taking the right decision but there are significant issues relating to the announcement that need clarification and explanation. It is important that time is provided in the Dáil for the Minister to make a statement and to take questions from Members. As the Taoiseach knows, the home at Tuam was just one of a network of institutions which systematically violated the rights of women and children. I hope that yesterday's decision is the beginning of a process that will see similar steps taken to investigate, locate and recover remains from other such sites in a timely manner. What is being considered in respect of other former mother and baby homes, other sites that are out there and known to us all?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I join with the Deputy in recognising the work of Catherine Corless, the local historian whose painstaking research over a number of years helped to bring many of the issues at Tuam to the attention of the Government and the public. I also recognise the various campaigners involved. I thank the Deputy for commending the Minister, Deputy Zappone, and the Government on the decision we made yesterday. The Government decision is to implement the multidisciplinary framework known as humanitarian forensic action. That is the appropriate response to the discovery of remains interred at the Tuam site. The actions being taken are as follows: a phased approach to the forensic excavation and recovery of the juvenile human remains insofar as is possible; the use of systemic on-site ground truthing and test excavations around the playground and the green areas to see if there are other potential burial sites; the forensic analysis of any recovered remains and, where possible, their individualisation and identification using DNA; thereafter, arrangements for respectful reburial and memorialisation of those remains. The Government's decision was informed by detailed technical advice on international best practice and, most importantly, by compassion and respect for the right to dignity of the children interred at the former mother and baby home.

The commission of investigation is separately continuing its work on investigating the mother and baby homes and a number of county homes. That work is continuing and we expect to receive the commission's report in the first quarter of next year. The facts which it establishes will further assist us in making decisions as to what we do into the future. I have had a chance to visit the site and to meet with Catherine Corless and some of the survivors. We made this decision yesterday. I am not entirely sure if anyone fully knows what we are getting into, but I am absolutely sure that we have made the right decision. If we stumbled upon a mass grave tomorrow, we would carry out an investigation and excavation. That is what we are doing but we are going to do it on a phased basis because we honestly do not know for sure what we are getting into, although we do know it is right thing to do.

It does require legislation. The advice of the Attorney General is that in order for us to excavate a mass grave in this way, which has never been done before in Ireland, we require new bespoke primary legislation. We expect to have that in the first quarter of next year. The estimate comes from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. It is estimated that this will cost between €6 million and €12 million but again, as this has not been done before, we do not know for sure if that will be the cost. The Bon Secours Sisters, following an approach from the Minister, Deputy Zappone, has agreed to make a contribution of €2.5 million toward the cost. This is a contribution, not a settlement. The order has not been given an indemnity.

Many people whom I spoke to about this issue know and understand that Ireland has had a very dark past. At one stage up to 10% of our entire population was living in institutions of some sort. That was quite common across northern Europe. Whether in convents, seminaries, county homes, psychiatric institutions, mother and baby homes, or laundries, at one stage about 10% of our population lived in institutions.

Comment on this

Now they live on the streets.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Many terrible things may have happened in those institutions. I know that some people may take the view that we should treat this as something in the past and not dredge up old issues. Some people have told me to let sleeping dogs lie. We have decided that is not the right approach. We need to understand our past, to know what happened, to come to terms with it, and to try to put things right. This is a step in that direction.

Comment on this

There is absolutely no doubt that the Taoiseach has decided on the right course of action. There is also no doubt that it is of immense importance to the survivors and their families, in the first instance, that the right thing is done but more broadly it is of immense importance for us as a society to consciously do the right thing in respect of these women and the children who were born into these institutions, those who spent time in them, those who survived them and, most particularly, those who perished. I will repeat that, as the Taoiseach knows, the home at Tuam is not unique by any stretch. There are many other mother and baby homes. There are many sites where families will stand - and I have stood with them - and speculate as to whether a child, a brother or a sister who was lost is buried there and precisely where. This is uncharted territory for us, but we need to get it right. I urge the Taoiseach to ensure that the legislation comes forward in a timely fashion. I will return to, and ask the Taoiseach about, the issue of costs.

It seems to me that €2.5 million from the Bon Secours is an entirely inadequate contribution to the excavation. I ask that the Government goes and seeks a higher contribution from the Bon Secours. It strikes me that at least 50% of the costs incurred would rightfully fall to them. Is there any sign that there will also be a contribution from the Vatican because that issue was also raised?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Government, through the work of the Minister, Deputy Zappone, sought a higher contribution and a percentage contribution but this is what is forthcoming. The Deputy will know the Bon Secours Sisters are not under any obligation to make a contribution but they are making a contribution of €2.5 million. We are treating it as a contribution. I want to make it very clear to everyone in the House that this is not a settlement, this is not an indemnity; this is an initial contribution to the cost of carrying out these works. The first €2.5 million will come from the Bon Secours and the rest from the taxpayer. It will be a very difficult operation. One needs to see the photos to understand what will be attempted. It is a very old mass grave. There are the remains of children in there. Some were stillborn and some were older. There may also be adult remains because it was a workhouse prior to that. It was used during the famine period as well. There are also potentially adult remains and remains from a very long time ago. When one looks at the photographs, one can see that the remains are intermingled - "commingled" is the term they use - and a lot of them are decomposed. It will be slow and painstaking and, unfortunately, it will not be possible to identify all of the remains. It will not be possible to individualise them all but we will do our best. What we learn along the way will inform what we do with regard to other sites. I think we are doing the right thing but I also want to contain expectations. This will take time. We have not done this before in Ireland. We will have to build up the capacity to do it. As well as that, while we will do our utmost to carry out a forensic examination, individualisation and identification, in many and perhaps most cases, it will not yield a result or answers.

Comment on this