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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Moneylenders and Christmas borrowing

Summary

Mary Lou McDonald argued that many families face severe pressure at Christmas and are pushed towards moneylenders, calling again for an interest-rate cap and stronger support through credit unions. The Taoiseach pointed to the restored Christmas bonus, existing low-cost credit options and emergency welfare payments, while acknowledging the need to protect people from exploitation.

Despite the fact that it is still only November, we are in the run-up to Christmas. Any family with small children would state that is 27 sleeps until Santa arrives. For many families, the reality of making Christmas happen is one of stress and expense. Regrettably, providing even essentials is beyond the means of many. That unfortunate reality means that many families resort to borrowing money, some from friends, family members, credit unions or banks. However, that will not be an option for others and many of them will resort to borrowing from moneylenders and loan sharks who, in many cases, are unlicensed and charge punitive and frankly disgusting interest rates. They are a scourge on our society.

There is also a licensed moneylending industry in this State whose practices are equally repulsive. A UK-based moneylender, Amigo Loans, has been given a licence by the Central Bank to operate in Ireland. The Central Bank has sanctioned it to offer loans with interest rates of up to 49.9% to people who have been excluded from accessing mainstream finance. Amigo Loans considers that to be mid-cost credit. I would call it daylight robbery. Amigo Loans is not the only entity involved in this game. A fortnight ago, the Centre for Co-operative Studies at UCC published a report on behalf of the Social Finance Foundation. That report indicates that moneylenders in this State are licensed to charge interest rates of up to 187% which, when collection charges are added, rises to an average percentage rate, APR, of 287%. The report also states that a total of 21 of the 28 EU member states apply caps to high-cost credit. That includes Ireland but, ironically, the only cap we apply is in respect of credit unions. We do not apply any cap on moneylenders. That is the reason moneylenders go door to door delivering leaflets at this time of year, preying on the vulnerabilities of people coming up to Christmas and charging these kinds of extortionate rates. Moneylenders are getting rich on the back of hard-pressed people who are simply trying to provide for their families. They can do this because the system in place allows them to do it. This is State-sponsored robbery. There is an urgent need to introduce a cap on the interest rates these types of outfits can charge. There is also a need for more wide-ranging reform of the regulation of moneylenders and the policing of illegal loan sharks.

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I thank the Deputy. The time is up.

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A number of years ago, Sinn Féin introduced a Bill that would have capped the interest rates moneylenders can charge but the Taoiseach's party and the Labour Party voted it down. I put it to the Taoiseach that it is now time to introduce a cap on moneylenders to ensure they can no longer get away with their daylight robbery.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy is correct. It is now less than a month from Christmas, which is a wonderful time for families and children. It is a time for excitement, friends and celebration, but it can also be a very stressful time, particularly when it comes to getting the house ready, buying presents and finding the money to do all of that. I absolutely acknowledge that. To assist people and families, particularly those on low incomes, with the cost of Christmas, we fully restored the Christmas bonus in the budget. In the next week or so, the Christmas bonus will be paid at 100%. That is the first time it has been paid at 100% in seven or eight years. It is a shame that Sinn Féin is not supporting the budget. It should support it. One of the reasons it should do so is that the budget makes provision for the 100% Christmas bonus, as does the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2018.

In March, there will be further increases in the working family payment for low income families who are working, increases in the qualified child payment for families on welfare and increases in the minimum wage will come into effect in January. As a Government, we are working very hard to increase pay in a sustainable way, reduce taxes in a sustainable way, increase welfare in a sustainable way and also reduce the cost of living where that is under our control.

In terms of regulation of financial services, as the Deputy is aware, we have a system of independent financial regulation. The Central Bank is the regulator. It is not the Government that is issuing licences to banks, moneylenders or the financial services industry. As far as I am aware, the Deputy is not proposing that the Government should take over the Central Bank and become the regulator. We have independent financial services in Ireland for very good reasons. That is the norm across Europe and it should remain the case.

Regarding moneylenders or people offering high-interest loans, I echo the Deputy's sentiments. It is important that people are very careful in taking out such loans and that, if they do, they are confident they can pay them back. Anyone who takes out a loan is responsible for repaying it. Anyone who takes out a loan has a responsibility to make sure they are able to pay it back.

There are alternatives. For example, the credit unions, working with the Department of Social Protection, offer low-cost loans. We call it the It Makes Sense loan. It is not available in every credit union but is available in many of them. I launched it when I was Minister for Social Protection. It has been very successful and allows people to take out a short-term loan at a low interest rate to meet costs such as Christmas. That can then be deducted from their credit union account or welfare payment.

People can also seek urgent needs payments from their community welfare officers. I would ask people to consider alternatives and, if they do take out a loan, to always consider the fact that they may not be able to pay it back.

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I thank the Taoiseach. His Government presides over an Ireland of soup kitchens, child homelessness, mothers queuing for formula and nappies, insecure employment and 300,000 people living in consistent poverty. To be clear, many of those people are at work. They get up at the crack of dawn and still struggle and fail to meet their basic requirements. I take it the Taoiseach is not suggesting that an interest rate of 49.9% is anything other than absolutely extortionate. Whatever argument he might make about the regulation of the financial services sector globally, there is no excuse for a Government standing over such a scandalous situation. That the State sanctions these outfits - ironically, in this case it is called Amigo Loans but I assure the Taoiseach that this amigo is no friend of anybody who borrows from it - and stands idly by and allows that to happen is nothing short of disgraceful.

We have put it to this House previously and we will again that we need a cap. I want the Taoiseach to commit to that and to accept, like me, that this is an outrageous situation. By the way, this is what is called mid-cost credit. Does the Taoiseach regard it as such?

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The time is up, Deputy.

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Does he regard it as acceptable that people are ripped off in this way?

In the context of the credit union It Makes Sense loan, I suggest that, rather than offering excuses to the House, the Taoiseach might act more vigorously and further resource that approach with the credit unions. It is a good approach-----

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The Deputy is way over time.

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-----but there are credit unions from which it is not available. There is no point preaching to people to look for alternatives when for so many families there is simply no other alternative bar these vultures.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As I said, I encourage people to look at the existing alternatives. Low-cost loans are available from the credit union through the It Makes Sense scheme. I appreciate it is not available in every credit union, but one need not go to the closest credit union nor be a member of a particular credit union to avail of that loan. For people who qualify, there is the possibility of getting an urgent needs payment or an exceptional needs payment if necessary.

I would also consider the interest rate that the Deputy suggested to be high rather than mid-cost and, therefore, I agree with her in that regard. We will examine any legislation she may wish to bring forward. We need to strike a balance here. People ultimately have personal freedom and if we restrict people from taking out loans, that is a restriction on their choice and freedom.

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People living in poverty do not have a choice.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Perhaps it is the case that we must restrict people's freedom and choice on occasion to protect them from being exploited.

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Being poor is not a choice.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

We need to ensure we get the balance right.

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