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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Children's hospital cost escalation

Summary

Micheál Martin challenged the Government over the hospital’s soaring cost, alleging it was not transparent with the Dáil or Cabinet and calling for a public inquiry. The Taoiseach said the project remained valuable, explained the latest cost breakdown, and said a PwC review was under way and would be published.

Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

We will commence with Leaders' Questions and the first question from the leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Micheál Martin. I observed yesterday that everyone stuck to his or her time. Hopefully, we can carry on that here in the Chamber today. That is no reflection on anyone. We will start with Deputy Micheál Martin, who has three minutes.

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I led the way yesterday, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

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The Deputy is due a bit of latitude today so.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Wait now, hold on. Let us start the business first. I cannot take a snapshot of everyone at the one time but let me remind Members, before they put their hands up again, that on Thursday last, the Ceann Comhairle indicated there was a long list and priority would be given to those Members today. We will complete that after I have had a look at the list. I call Deputy Micheál Martin.

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The Government has been less than transparent and generally is at sea in explaining and accounting for the extraordinary escalation in the cost of the national children's hospital.

In 2016, the Taoiseach, in his then role as Minister for Health, announced that the hospital would cost €650 million all-in, including inflation, VAT and contingency, and that, short of an asteroid hitting, it would be built in 2020. A year later, that figure of €650 million became €980 million. In 2018, it became €1.7 billion. Before Christmas, the Taoiseach told the Dáil it was €1.4 billion, yet we now know that the figure was actually €1.7 billion.

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It will be €2 billion.

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For some reason, the Taoiseach withheld that information from the Dáil. Why did he not provide the full figure on that date when I raised the issue in the House? The Minister, Deputy Harris, and his Department were told about the escalating costs in August, but apparently the Cabinet was only informed in December. Why was that the case? Why were the Cabinet and the Dáil not kept accurately informed of developments in regard to the cost of the hospital? By any yardstick, this is extraordinary stuff. It has gone from a cost of €650 million in 2016 to €1.7 billion in 2018.

The children's hospital in Stockholm became a famous outlier on its construction. It was built at a cost of €2.1 billion, far in excess of the estimated cost, but, at least, it provided 1,340 beds. At a current cost of €1.7 billion, our hospital will provide 473 beds. Not an additional bed will be provided as a result of the extraordinary increase in expenditure.

In spite of a near trebling of the cost, there has been no satisfactory explanation or accountability. It beggars belief. It reveals a chronic lack of political oversight in terms of the approach to the expenditure on the project. In reply to Deputy Cowen in the House in September 2018, the Minister, Deputy Harris, stated that the total budget was a little more than €1 billion. Six weeks later, that became €1.7 billion. Was the Dáil misled in December? Why were the true figures hidden? Was it because of the budget discussions that were ongoing? Was a decision made to keep the cost of this project overrun hidden from public view? The Taoiseach may remember that budget discussions were ongoing in regard to the significant Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Health on the current spending side and whether it was going to be more than €700 million or close to €1 billion. However, there was not a murmur about overruns on the capital side at the new children's hospital even though certain people knew it would hit €1.7 billion. It is impossible to reconcile the Minister's reply in September 2018 with the reality of the €1.7 billion cost that emerged in a Cabinet memo in December.

When was the Taoiseach first made aware of the escalating cost of the children's hospital? When was the Minister for Health first made aware of it? Does the Taoiseach agree that this issue demands a public inquiry, preferably through an Oireachtas committee, with full compellability, openness and transparency?

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

When we talk about the children's hospital, we should not forget the enormous value the project will bring to the country.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It will deliver a major improvement in healthcare and paediatric care for our most valuable citizens, namely, our children. Some 450 beds will be provided, each of them single rooms, which is very different from what we currently have. There will be space for parents to stay overnight.

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Only if they get into the hospital.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

There will be 15 theatres and five MRI machines. Ambulatory care centres at both Tallaght and Connolly hospitals will be provided which will reduce the need for admissions and attendances and the total need for hospital beds. The project will provide parent accommodation and an academic research centre. The hospital will be born digital. It will be an enormous asset for the country and will serve our children well not for decades but longer, possibly for more than 100 years.

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How will they get in there?

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The capital build cost of the project is €1.433 billion. That includes the entire capital cost for the main hospital at St. James's which will also house the school and third level educational spaces, the outpatient and urgent care centres I mentioned at Connolly and Tallaght hospitals, equipment for the three sites and construction of the car park and retail spaces.

These same elements made up the capital cost figure of €983 million, which was reported to the Government in April 2017.

With regard to my knowledge of the additional rising costs, I was informed that the costs looked like they were escalating again probably at some time around the end of November and I asked for full information, as is always the case when I am told something. I got that full information only a day or two before the particular Cabinet meeting in December. The additional cost, €319 million, relates to construction, and the balance of that, €131 million, includes €50 million in VAT. Other costs relate to staff, consultants, planning and design teams, risk and contingency, and the management equipment service. The construction cost is €1.433 billion. I acknowledged in the Dáil the day after that this could rise. Obviously with construction inflation continuing, any delay potentially adds to the cost. The cost of the hospital can involve more than the construction. It is also necessary to equip it. That can be done either by buying the equipment or through a management equipment service contract whereby the equipment is not bought but leased and maintained on a long-term basis.

Why did the cost go up? There are number of reasons, which have been explained. These include construction inflation, fire safety rules that required a much more expensive sprinkler system - very much more expensive - and a miscalculation of the cost of electrics and cabling. The board got the latter wrong. Obviously, any time the cost goes up, the VAT goes up also. We should not forget that some of the figures being bandied around do not include VAT.

With regard to further inquiries, the Department of Health has retained PricewaterhouseCoopers, PwC, the expert accountancy and consultancy firm, to carry out an analysis of this and to report back to the Government in a few months with more information as to how the costs escalated in the way they did.

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There is talk about increasing costs, but we are not talking about a normal increase in costs. We are talking about an extraordinary escalation in costs. The Taoiseach said in 2016 that the all-in cost was €650 million, including VAT, inflation and contingency costs. That is what he said two years ago but he is now telling me that he, as Taoiseach, was told only at the end of November that the cost had gone up to €1.7 billion. He might inform the House why the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, did not tell anybody, it appears, until November or December although he was told by the Department about this in August. The Department, in a statement it issued, said it kept the Minister for Health fully informed about the escalating costs. There was not a whisper to anybody, however, until late December. During the Christmas holiday period, the full memo was leaked that reveals the cost of €1.7 billion, which the Taoiseach was aware of in December but chose not to mention to us. Does the Taoiseach believe it is acceptable that, although the Minister for Health was told about this in August, the Taoiseach found out about it only at the end of November? A sprinkler system does not explain a near trebling of the cost.

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Do not forget the VAT.

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VAT does not explain a near trebling of the cost.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach to respond.

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There is no confidence that this will be held at €1.7 billion. Health officials are acknowledging privately that we are facing a cost of €2 billion and that there will be little change out of €2 billion once this is finished.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach to respond. The Deputy cannot have two minutes.

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Who was in charge politically? What went wrong? Reviews by accountancy firms are all well and good but that is only locking it up for another couple of months.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach to respond.

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What is needed is a public inquiry with compellability, preferably through the Oireachtas.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

There is no one thing, whether it is VAT, fire safety, construction inflation or an underestimate of the cost of the cables and electrics, that could possibly explain an increase of this nature. Of course it is multifactorial. Of course there are a number of reasons the cost has gone up. The estimate did not just go from €650 million to €1.433 million. It went up to €983 million, which was reported to the Government in April 2017, and it has since gone up to €1.433 billion.

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They know the Government does not care.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That was reported to the Government in December. That is the full construction cost, including the car parks, but it does not include ICT investment, for example, and some other associated costs.

The review being undertaken by PwC commenced this week. Department of Health officials have engaged with the HSE and consultants on finalising the terms of reference, methodology and timeframe. I look forward to seeing the review and, obviously, we will be very happy to publish it once it is completed. I have no doubt that Oireachtas committees will also want to consider it.

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