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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ar Reachtaíocht a Gealladh - Questions on Promised Legislation

National children's hospital overruns

Summary

Several Deputies attacked the ballooning cost of the national children's hospital and asked about who signed the contract, the impact on other capital projects, and the independence of the PwC review. The Minister said he took responsibility for proceeding with the hospital, defended the review and chairman appointment, and promised some clarity on wider 2019 spending; the exchange became prolonged and heated.

The Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, has been detailed today to answer on behalf of the Taoiseach. People throughout the country are outraged at the escalation in the cost of the children's hospital. People in Kerry are concerned about our new community hospital in Killarney and how far that will be pushed back. When the Minister is finished talking to his colleagues, I will ask him a question. People want to know about the contracts. Someone signed a contract on behalf of the client, the client being the people of Ireland, to build the children's hospital. Who signed the contract with the contractors? Was it the Minister for Finance? Was it the Taoiseach? Was it the Minister for Health? Which of them signed the contract? The Government is now commissioning a report that will cost €500,000. I put it to the Minister that whoever signed that contract knows who is responsible for the escalation in the price.

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The Deputy's time is up.

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Will the Minister spell it out here? Who signed the contract on behalf of the client, the people of Ireland?

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Please, Deputy.

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The Government has exposed the taxpayers to this massive increase and the people are entitled to know who signed the contract.

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Deputies Butler and Michael Healy-Rae also have questions on the same matter.

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The costs overrun on the national children's hospital will have a knock-on effect for many capital projects. Clarity is needed as a matter of priority as to which projects will be delayed or deferred. I refer to the second permanent cath lab at University Hospital Waterford that was signed off on by the Minister for Health at a meeting with all south east Oireachtas Members last October. The Minister has reiterated that this project will not be delayed, but clarity is needed on the 2019 health service plan. Unfortunately, at a committee meeting last Thursday, the Department said differently. When will we have this clarity once and for all?

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In case the Minister thinks this matter is going to go away, I remind him that only for Brexit it would bring the Government down. That is a fact. Each and every member of the Government knows this. This is serious. It is true that every Deputy in this House is now wondering what knock-on effects this will have to HSE budgets in their constituencies. The way the Government has handled it has been catastrophic. I will repeat, and it is my fourth time to say this in the House today, that the best that the Minister for Health could come up with to describe the situation is "the least worst option". Those words will come back to haunt each and every member of the Government when they come to face the electorate again. This is a disgrace and they are not taking it seriously enough. They had better wake up to this. The Minister for Finance must definitely wake up to this.

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The Deputy's time is up.

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This is beyond belief. The people are outraged. The Government is building it at an enormous overrun and in the wrong place-----

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Please, Deputy.

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-----and they have been exposed now for making a mess of it.

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On the same issue, this situation has exposed the politics by press release and announcements rather than the politics of governing. Deputy Cowen's intervention also summed up this type of politics with regard to the other Departments. The effects of the massive cost overruns may not be felt immediately this year but will be felt next year and the year after. I want to know which school projects and third level projects are planned to be affected by this cost overrun? This will have a massive impact. Schools throughout the State are badly in need of works. There was a big announcement made last year by the Minister for Education and Skills with regard to demographic pressures. We need new schools. Will the Minister indicate what the effect will be?

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On the same matter of the children's hospital costs, we have been promised an independent review, to be carried out by PricewaterhouseCoopers, into the overall spend of the children's' hospital. A cursory look in the Companies Registration Office shows that PricewaterhouseCoopers has been the auditor of the Royal BAM Group, and not just its subsidiary in Ireland. This is a billion euro plus company. PricewaterhouseCoopers is the auditor and accountant for this company. Is the Minister satisfied that the House can accept this as an independent assessment by a company that has consistently been the auditor of the Royal BAM Group's accounts for the past number of years? Does he honestly believe that we can accept this as an independent review, bearing in mind that the contract we are referring to with BAM is a €1.7 billion potential contract? Is the Minister satisfied that the review will be fully independent? Is he satisfied that every Member in the House can accept the review as independent? The Minister has grave questions to answer around the independence of such a review. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has to be satisfied that it is fully independent. I certainly am not.

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Deputies Buckley and Ellis on the same matter.

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Will the national capital plans be affected due to this cost overrun? There have been promises on two major projects in my area with more than €13 million to be invested between Midleton and Youghal community hospitals, which are due to be completed by 2021. We have not seen this yet and I fear these projects may be affected by the massive overrun of costs at the national children's hospital. I would like some update on this investment.

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There was a commitment by the Government, and a top priority of the HSE, to build a primary care centre in Finglas. Dublin City Council entered into an agreement with the HSE to provide the land. The council recently purchased a local site - the Church of the Annunciation site - from the diocese. Money and a commitment to building the new centre is urgently needed. Will the Minister allay the concerns of the community that the overspend on the new children's hospital will not impact on this vital project? The people of Finglas are angry. We have waited for this primary care centre as a top priority. Will the Minister allay the people's fears and let us know if the project can and will go ahead?

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The Government and I are well aware of the anger and concern people have with regard to the national children's hospital. We are well aware of the grave concerns people have on the cost escalation. We made the decision, and I take responsibility for the decision, to move ahead with the hospital and ensure that it is built.

The reason for that is my commitment to the site and seeing the project delivered to provide transformative care to young children throughout our country. Equally, I am aware of the anger in the House and concern nationally on the cost escalation. I answered questions about it for the afternoon yesterday, and the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, is doing so today. To deal with Deputy Kelleher's question, the Deputy knows well that I cannot speak on behalf of other Members. I know the variety and strength of feeling in the House on the matter. I am confident that whatever work PwC does will be independent.

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It would want to be for €500,000.

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PwC will give its professional view as to how the matter developed and how we can ensure the remainder of the project is done well. The appointment of Mr. Fred Barry as the new chairman of the board will be instrumental in that regard. I note to Deputy Ellis that I hope to be in a position next week to clarify the effect on any other spend across 2019.

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Why did the Government not get someone with no conflict of interest or potential conflict of interest? PwC has a potential conflict of interest.

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Deputy Kelleher should table a Topical Issue matter.

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Given that we have increased capital expenditure for 2019 alone by €1.4 billion, I am confident that we will be able to deliver on the commitments we have made to constituencies and communities.

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Did the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, sign the contract?

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Four Deputies have been indicating.

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I ask for an answer on the second cath lab, perhaps from the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly.

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Ní bhfuair mé freagra.

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I discussed the lab this morning. Developments on that are imminent and there is no cause for concern at this time.

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The Taoiseach said we would get the list within ten days from last Sunday.

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I did not get an answer on the capital plan for the two hospitals in east Cork.

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