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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Abortion safety zones and review

Summary

Ruth Coppinger raises intimidation of women seeking abortion services, asks for urgent safety-zone legislation, and criticises the 28-day rule. The Taoiseach supports protection from intimidation, says the legislation is being enacted, and notes the law already contains a review mechanism.

Nine months ago the country voted en masse to repeal the eighth amendment and to allow abortion rights. It was a truly historic referendum. The central message was clear that people with a crisis pregnancy should be cared for in Ireland and should not be forced abroad and that people should be able to make these decisions freely without barrier or obstruction. In the last 24 hours we have heard that women may face intimidation from anti-choice zealots in hospitals, clinics and car parks. The Taoiseach needs to give the date for urgent safety-zone legislation.

We are also hearing of women struggling to get access and who are left outside of the law. I want to ask the Taoiseach about women with tragic foetal diagnoses, people who had such an impact during the referendum. There are worrying signs that the very women whose stories resonated throughout the country are still being forced abroad. A number of women have contacted my office and three of them have had to go to England for terminations for medical reasons. In the latest case, a woman - let us call her Mary - contacted me. She had a scan in Portiuncula Hospital and the obstetrician told her that there was a muchal translucency with fluid around the neck of 8 to 9 mm and possible Edwards syndrome. She was told there was only 15% chance of delivery and the baby might live an hour or so.

However, the doctor then said, for whatever reason, that nothing could be done, as she was over 12 weeks. Mary was handed the names of three hospitals in England. By the way, she also said a staff member had treated her like a leper after this point. She later rang the HSE and was directed to University Hospital Galway where, despite a GP telephoning and apparently making an arrangement for a scan, a doctor told her on arrival that there was no one there to see her and that she would not get to the second trimester. At that stage, she and her husband had had enough. They walked out and within hours had made an appointment to travel to England. Of course, it would have been at great expense, in having to have children looked after, making work arrangements etc. Mary said to me: "I would lose my head if I had to continue this pregnancy, but Ireland will do nothing for me."

All of the women who have contacted me have individual stories, but they have one thing in common - last May they voted never knowing that they were going to face this situation but thinking they would be cared for if they did. They have asked me to put some questions to the Taoiseach. Why can a pregnant person in another country sit down with a doctor, get all of the facts and then come to a decision with her family? In this country why is a distinction made between fatal and severe abnormalities that is not made in other countries? One of the women who is a nurse asked who made the decision on what conditions got onto the list of fatal foetal abnormalities-----

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Time is up.

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-----and why it varied from hospital to hospital. The women also asked why a 28-day rule had been introduced. It is difficult for doctors to live by and was never part of the referendum conversation. Does the Taoiseach agree that conservative Catholic control of hospitals and a very narrow law with criminalisation are having a chilling effect and forcing such women to travel abroad?

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Last May the people of Ireland voted in overwhelming numbers to make abortion legal in Ireland in certain circumstances. I believe abortion is very much a private and personal matter. I do not believe any woman decides or chooses to end her pregnancy lightly. No woman seeking this service and no doctor, midwife, nurse or anyone else involved in providing it should be subject to intimidation in any way in the course of going about that work or seeking to avail of what is now a legal health service in Ireland. As Deputies will be aware, the legislation to enact and realise the decision made by the people was passed by the Houses. There are now 274 GPs nationally who have signed up to provide terminations in early pregnancy, while there about ten maternity hospital units which are providing the service. When one considers that roughly between ten and 14 women end their pregnancies in Ireland every day, 274 GPs are there to help them and ten maternity units provide the service. The service will continue to be developed in the months and years ahead.

To answer the Deputy's question about the difference between fatal and severe abnormalities, that was a decision that was discussed in the Oireachtas. As an Oireachtas - the Deputy participated in all of those debates, which is why she should know the answer to her own question - we decided that disability would not be grounds for the termination of a pregnancy but that fatal abnormalities would be. A severe abnormality is very often a disability. That is a decision we made as a House - that we would make that distinction and that disability would not be grounds for a termination after 12 weeks. I do not really want to comment on any individual case. I know that the diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality must be a very difficult one for anybody - the mum, the dad and the family - when in a much wanted pregnancy one finds out something has gone wrong. Without knowing the facts of any individual case, it would be inappropriate for me to comment. I am aware that the Deputy raised an individual case here in the past, the facts of which turned out to be different from those that she-----

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Yes, as the Deputy laid them out on the floor of the House. That should be borne in mind.

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It was reported in The Irish Times that last April at a Fine Gael Party conference Susan and Tim Corcoran had spoken about their struggle with an Edwards syndrome diagnosis.

There is no guarantee they will be able to have an abortion in this country, despite the new law. That is my point. The Taoiseach has not bothered to comment on the problems women are encountering in reality in our hospitals and, I am sure, particularly in rural areas. What we need now is a review of the law sooner rather than later, particularly the 28-day rule that was never part of the national conversation. The Taoiseach is right. Politicians chickened out on what the Citizens’ Assembly recommended, which was severe foetal abnormalities to be considered as well. Those women are paying the price now and it is really not helpful of the Taoiseach to conflate this with disability when he knows these conditions are very complex and interact with one another.

Finally, we need separation of church and State. We need fully secular hospitals where there is not such a culture that sends people on their way but where the Catholic Church no longer has a say in these matters and influences medical staff as well. We need that sooner rather than later. Is the Taoiseach willing to at least review the 28-day rule, which many people cite as being problematic?

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As I recollect, there is an inbuilt mechanism within the legislation already for a review.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is something that was discussed in this Oireachtas and we decided as an Oireachtas, collectively, that this is when the review would take place. This service is new. It was never going to be a case of being able to start it in one day. Any new medical service, any new public service, has to develop and evolve, and it will develop and evolve. Unfortunately, it may not be up to scratch for some women and patients now but we will see to it that it improves and evolves as it is developed.

I have to take issue with one of the Deputy’s remarks. We did not chicken out.

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You did. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael did.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

We made a decision in this Oireachtas that disability and severe disability should not be grounds for terminating a pregnancy. We decided that a woman was free to choose to end her pregnancy for any reason, or none, up to 12 weeks but after that it would have to be because of a risk to her health, a risk to her life or a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality. We decided that as a House. If the Deputy wants to reopen the debate about whether disability should be grounds for termination, that is the her choice. It is not that we chickened out. We decided as a House. We said during the referendum campaign when we asked people to vote "Yes", or at least I did, that we would not allow disability to be grounds for terminations after 12 weeks.

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