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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Clodagh Hawe case and review

Summary

Deputies raised the Clodagh Hawe murders, the family’s television appeal, and unanswered questions about the investigation. The Taoiseach expressed sympathy and said the Justice Minister would welcome a submission from the family for further consideration.

Last night's special edition of "Claire Byrne Live" entitled, "Her Name is Clodagh", was a heart-rending, difficult and very upsetting programme and an important one from a public service perspective. The courage shown by Mary Coll and Jacqueline Connolly, Clodagh Hawe's mother and sister, respectively, in telling their story was incredible. There are many disturbing elements to this story and many of their questions have remained unanswered for far too long. Their loss was devastating. The manner of their loss was horrifying and savage, and stretches our human capacity to understand.

When a mother and her three sons are murdered by their father, it demands a comprehensive response from the State's agencies and that needs to be reflected upon. The family wants basic answers. They believe a full book of evidence should be published. There is no compelling reason basic information could not have been given to Clodagh's family much earlier. It took until 16 months after the murders for the family to see Alan Hawe's suicide letter, for instance. No murder trial would have been compromised.

Unfortunately, familicide is not new to Ireland. There is a sense that it is occurring much more frequently in modern times than in the past. There are serious child protection issues at stake. How robust are these protections? There are profound issues relating to mental health and psychiatry. How much serious indigenous research on this issue has been commissioned by the Departments of Justice and Equality and Health? How adequate is the State's response across the range of services when such an horrific murder occurs? Is there a co-ordinated and multidisciplinary response? Watching the programme last night, one got the sense that there is not. I do not want to be judgmental and I am not attempting to apportion blame but serious questions remain to be asked and responded to. Clearly, there are lessons to be learned.

Ten years ago, the report into the Monageer familicide was published, albeit that was in different circumstances given that family's interactions with social services on a frequent basis. Nonetheless, it might provide a template for the kind of inquiry and analysis that Clodagh's mother, sister and family are looking for. The Departments of Health and Justice and Equality need to co-ordinate strongly on this issue. The Department of Health states that familicide, murder and suicide are criminal issues for the Department of Justice and Equality. The Department of Health looks at it from a suicide prevention perspective.

On foot of the Coll family's request, is the Government considering an inquiry or some investigation into the circumstances surrounding those murders so as to develop a greater understanding of those circumstances and to learn lessons? Will the Taoiseach ensure that genuine indigenous research is commissioned on this very difficult issue of familicide in Ireland? Will he agree to develop a multidisciplinary action plan to guide State agencies in responding to such events in the future?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue, which I know a lot of people across the country are talking about today. I am afraid I did not have a chance to watch the programme myself as I was travelling back from a meeting last night and did not get into the country until quite late. However, a lot of people have spoken to me about it through the course of the morning, and they were deeply impacted by the story they heard and by the bravery of Clodagh's mother and sister, who shared their story with the nation last night.

I do, of course, know a little about the case and the murders of Clodagh, Liam, Niall and Ryan. It was a heartbreaking and horrific tragedy for the family and for the wider community in Virginia, County Cavan. What happened must be beyond anyone's worst nightmares and it was truly a terrible crime. I am sure the condolences of the entire House go to the family and to the wider community. We cannot imagine their pain and I know there is very little we can say or do here to ease or erase their grief and suffering. Understandably, in such circumstances, where a suicide or a murder-suicide occurs, people want to know why it happened and it is often not possible to answer that question. They often want to know if there is anything they could have done to prevent it or if there were any signs that they could have identified. Often, the truth is that there is not. That makes the pain even harder.

As the Deputy acknowledged, family annihilation and familicide is rare, thankfully, but it does happen and perhaps more frequently that it did in the past. We can, therefore, learn lessons. In terms of what we can do, we think it is a combination of changing laws - in fact, we have already changed laws - reform of the Garda and how gardaí deal with such cases, reform of the law and maybe some specific actions around this case. The Domestic Violence Act, which was passed in 2018, made coercive control an offence in this State for the first time. That was an important step forward, which was led by Government, with the support of the Oireachtas. Gardaí are trying to improve the way they deal with such serious cases through the Garda National Protective Services Bureau, GNPSB, which is responsible for ensuring that front-line gardaí have a solid understanding of coercive control and this new legislation. That has been going live in all Garda divisions since the first week in January. Ten have been established across nine divisions and it will go to the other 19 in 2019. In addition, the family have asked us to review the Succession Act 1965 in regard to inheritance, on which Deputy Jim O'Callaghan has done some work, and the Coroners Act 1962 in regard to burials.

In terms of taking this forward and seeing what we can do to answer some of the questions, and perhaps to learn from what has happened, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, will be happy to receive a submission from the family with their suggestions, and perhaps we will take it from there.

Comment on this

I welcome the approach of a submission to be received by the Minister, which would be some response to the family's request as articulated last evening on the programme. The family made very many valid points on the programme. Their central point was that it is far too easy in cases of familicide to throw a blanket over the cases and say, "It is depressive psychosis", and that is the end of it. That leaves the family asking a lot of questions and feeling that the issue has not been dealt with in the comprehensive, multidisciplinary way that it should be. I ask that this be given consideration.

The family raised the issue of the Coroners Act and the Succession Act during the programme and I welcome the fact amendments to those Acts will be assessed in the context of familicide.

The National Office for Suicide Prevention has been carrying out a literature review in respect of familicide with organisations from other European states. It is time to commission research on familicide in Ireland over the past two to three decades. The Taoiseach might ask the Departments of Justice and Equality and Health to commission such research. It could provide insights and valuable lessons for future policy to guide State agencies.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Micheál Martin asked a specific question about the book of evidence. I understand from An Garda Síochána that when someone gives evidence as part of an investigation, that evidence is privileged. There is concern that if this was removed, it would be harder to convince people to give evidence to the Garda in other cases if they knew that evidence given under privilege could be released later. The Deputy is correct in stating that there was information which could have been given to the family at an earlier stage and that, on occasion, they learned things from the media. That is a recurring theme regarding other issues as well. It is something that should not happen.

Regarding the suggestion on research being done by the National Office for Suicide Prevention, its budget has been doubled in recent years and it has a budget for research. We will raise with it the suggestion as to whether it would make sense to do some domestic research on familicide. As I said earlier, regarding the best way to move forward on this issue, rather than making decisions or commitments in this Chamber on the hoof on foot of a TV programme that aired last night, we would welcome a submission from the family of Ms Hawe to the Minister for Justice and Equality. We can then consider that, bring things forward and perhaps do something to help the family deal with this tragedy. Lessons might also be learned that could allow the prevention of similar tragedies in future.

Comment on this

Last night, we witnessed the mother and sister of Clodagh Hawe, Mary and Jacqueline, speak about her brutal murder and those of her three sons, Liam, aged 13, Niall, aged 11, and Ryan, aged six, at the hands of her husband and the children's father in August 2016. Anyone who saw last night's programme has been deeply affected by the utterly terrifying and heartbreaking story, as well as by the issues raised by the family concerning the subsequent investigation and the unanswered questions that remain almost three years later. I extend deepest and sincerest sympathies to the family and friends of Ms Hawe, Liam, Niall and Ryan. It is clear from the testimony of Clodagh's family last night that they need answers to the questions they have concerning the murders of Ms Hawe and her three children. The State also needs answers. As legislators, there is an onus on us to ensure the necessary statutory provisions are in place to understand in full how and why these violent crimes occur.

I wrote to the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, earlier this month asking that consideration be given to the introduction of domestic homicide reviews and that these be underpinned by legislation. Such reviews have been in place in Britain since 2011 and are due to be introduced in Northern Ireland following a public consultation process. Domestic homicide reviews take a multi-agency approach to determine the circumstances in which such deaths occur. Organisations such as Women’s Aid have long advocated for the introduction of such reviews in this country. The family and friends of victims should also be included in the review process. That should happen because the reality is that Garda management does not have adequate data on or understanding of these homicides. If there were such understanding, then Mary and Jacqueline would not have had to go on television to advance what are modest requests. They want to understand how or why Clodagh and her children were murdered. Does the Taoiseach support the introduction of domestic homicide reviews? Will he consider introducing them in the future?

Families deserve answers to their questions and reviews of this kind can play a very important part in providing those answers. Last night, the family called for reviews of the Coroners Act and laws surrounding exhumations as well as changes to the Succession Act. In a sense they have very publicly made their submission. I am glad that the Minister for Justice and Equality is open to such a submission, but the family also wants an inquiry. They want answers. Will the Minister for Justice and Equality meet the family to agree the scope and form of such an inquiry?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As I indicated earlier in my response to Deputy Martin, the Minister would be very happy to receive a submission from the family with their suggestions on how to better deal with family annihilation and family homicide. We can take it from there and make decisions on foot of full consideration of that submission.

I answered the question on the Coroners Act and the Succession Act earlier. It is acknowledged that the Garda can learn from awful cases such as this, and from other family homicides that have occurred in recent years. I am informed that the Garda is carrying out a review of cases of domestic homicide to better inform its approach to domestic violence generally. That review is ongoing.

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, the GNPSB is now responsible for ensuring that front-line gardaí have a solid understanding of our new laws on domestic violence. Major changes to policing are taking place within six new divisional protective services units, DPSUs. They went live across six Garda divisions in the first week of January. Ten divisional units have been established across nine Garda divisions and DPSUs will go live in the remaining 19 divisions throughout 2019.

Comment on this

I thank the Taoiseach. I am aware of all of that work and, undoubtedly, it marks progress. I discussed these matters when I met the Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, some months ago. However, I am now making a different proposition and a different point to the Taoiseach. Rather than proceeding in an ad hoc or discretionary way, we should establish multi-agency review processes of these types of homicides in law. This would allow an avenue for families, friends and each of the statutory organisations not just to share and reveal information but to learn. To return to my initial point, Clodagh and her three boys are gone. Others have also died in this horrific way. It is our job as legislators and it is the duty of statutory agencies not simply to be horrified, although we are all horrified by this turn of events, but to try to grasp why it happened so that we can take preventative action. The family have asked for an inquiry. They have not specified a particular type of inquiry. Can I suggest that rather than simply indicating a willingness to receive a submission, the Minister should meet the family in these circumstances and hear their questions directly? He should hear from them what a short, sharp informative inquiry should look like to give these families the comfort that I know we all wish for them to have.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy. We would not be doing justice to the family or right by the country to make decisions or commitments on the hoof in this Chamber. As the Minister for Justice and Equality has indicated, he would be very happy to receive a submission from the family based on what they said on television last night. There may be other things they also want to say, which they were not able to get across on a television programme. The Minister would be happy to meet them on foot of that and we can follow it up from there.

Comment on this