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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Fair Deal nursing home scheme

Summary

Deputy Mattie McGrath argues that the nursing home support scheme is unfair, especially for rural and farm families, and presses for promised reforms and legislation. The Taoiseach defends the scheme, says changes are long overdue but will be progressed, and explains the legislative timetable while the Deputy insists on urgency.

As far back as May 2017, this House voted to accept the motion that I and my colleagues in the Rural Independent Group brought forward, outlining the reforms needed to happen as regards the nursing home support scheme called fair deal. I thank Maura Canning from the IFA for all the support she gave us at that time and since then. Since then we have had numerous commitments from the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, who I accept is genuinely trying to progress the matter, that legislation to give effect to these changes is on the way.

However, other more serious matters have come to light during the intervening time. Analysis by Nursing Homes Ireland, NHI, revealed that the HSE is paying nursing homes up to seven times more than the fees being paid to private and voluntary counterparts which raises issues of competition and displacement of staff using state aid. This is totally unacceptable. This information only came to light after the HSE consistently refused to disclose and stonewalled as to the costs of care in its homes over a five-year period and would not give us answers. Now we know why. In the figures released, we see that the spend to provide care for 5,000 residents in nursing homes is approximately €366 million per annum whereas the equivalent spend to support 17,000 residents in private and voluntary nursing homes is just €600 million, which is not even double the earlier figure. There is something rotten here that has to be rooted out.

The Taoiseach must accept that such overpricing is threatening the sustainability of the entire fair deal scheme. Can the Taoiseach clarify if this is the reason for the delay in introducing the reforms? Something is holding it up. Is the HSE resisting this obvious threat to its revenue generating activities? Goodness knows the HSE is holding up enough issues and is underperforming in so many areas. It is outrageous to have rural people - farmers and business people - discriminated against in this appalling fashion and it is by no means a recent problem.

As far back as 2015, I called on the then Minister for Health, tú féin, Taoiseach, to explain to the south Tipperary participants in the fair deal scheme why they are paying, on average, €26,000 extra per year to access the scheme compared to participants in north Tipperary, all of whom are in the same county. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. It is almost ten months since July 2018 when Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, announced that the Cabinet had approved a proposal to change the treatment of farms and businesses under the scheme and to extend a three-year cap to farms and businesses. The Minister of State said at the time that he was looking forward to progressing changes in the Oireachtas in the autumn session. Can the Taoiseach please confirm if we are any nearer to progressing this matter, given the considerable delays that farm families and many thousands of other families have already had to endure? The situation is totally unfair.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The fair deal, or nursing home support, scheme is a very good scheme that has worked well and stood the test of time. I want to recognise the former Minister for Health, Mary Harney, and the Government of which she was a member, for bringing that through. It gives fair access to nursing home support to people when they need it. We are working very hard at the moment to ensure that we keep the turnaround time down to between four and six weeks, which is being achieved. The budget for this is approximately €1 billion a year, which is a huge amount of money which is being invested in nursing home care for our elderly, when they need it.

The heads of the Bill being brought forward by the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, are expected to go to Cabinet in June. That will ensure that the fair deal becomes a fairer deal for people who own a small business and for farmers-----

Comment on this

It is not a fair deal.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----when it comes to the way it is being assessed. That legislation is overdue but we expect the heads to be at Cabinet in June, and we will see that through.

The Deputy also asked about the difference in cost between public and private nursing homes. The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, is doing an analysis of that at the moment. It is important to bear in mind that we are not necessarily comparing like with like when one compares a public nursing home or community hospital with a private nursing home. Very often the public nursing home takes in a different profile of resident - often those who have much greater needs and need much greater care and attention. Given their acuity and need for more care, this requires more staff and more cost comes with that. It is important to compare like with like and comparing public to private nursing homes is like comparing private and public hospitals. It is not the same thing. Those with the highest and most expensive care needs are the people who tend to be in the public facilities.

Comment on this

Fair deal is a lovely name but it should be called unfair deal. It is daylight robbery of families and it is totally and inherently unfair. The Taoiseach said the heads of the Bill will be brought to Cabinet in June. How long more will it take after that? Will we be out knocking on doors and will the Taoiseach's Government be gone, with the unfairness and the discrimination against rural, farm families and ordinary small businesses still there? They are entitled to the same care.

I accept part of the Taoiseach's answer that there may be different needs and care levels in public and private nursing homes, but I will not accept it in full. There could not be that much discrimination or extra cost. It is outrageous and people are being milked high and dry. Farmers and business people need their assets as going concerns in order to work, to be able to pay their taxes, to provide for their families and to pay their employees. We cannot attack and strip away the resource of those assets year-on-year. It is totally and inherently unfair and discriminatory against rural families. I hope somebody challenges this because it is totally illegal. We have had enough of this. We fought hard in the programme for Government to get this issue changed and it beggars belief that it would take so long. The heads of the Bill were supposed to go to Cabinet a long time ago. The Taoiseach said they are going in June but what progress will be made and what will be the process after the heads go to Cabinet? How long more will this be delayed? How long more will this discrimination against rural and farm families and businesses continue?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I accept this is long promised and long overdue. We will get it done and see it through. The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, assured me the heads will be before Cabinet in the month of June. It is nearly June now. After that it usually takes a few months for legislation to be drafted. The Bill will then be published. After that it is in the Deputy's hands, because he is a member of the Business Committee.

Comment on this

We will not delay it.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I do not control how long it takes to get through this House and the Seanad-----

Comment on this

It is a supply chain here.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----but we will certainly play our part.

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