Speaking on "Morning Ireland" this morning, the former head of the Army Ranger Wing, Commandant Cathal Berry, said that the purported pay package for members of the Defence Forces to be announced today amounts to "too little, too late". It is hard to disagree. The Minister talked about team Ireland. These are people who put their lives on the line for team Ireland. He said that what is on offer will work out at just €1 a day before tax for many soldiers and that "this is the kind of money you would give a child to get sweets and that is what the Government thinks of the Defence Forces." Again, it is hard to disagree. There is a serious recruitment and retention crisis in the Defence Forces, as there is in some areas in our public services on the front line. Some 3,700 personnel left the Defence Forces over the last number of years. The average turnover is currently 9%. In the Naval Service it is 14%. These people are voting with their feet. They do so because of the very low levels of pay that they receive. They pay mortgages and rent. Like everybody else, they are caught with the high cost of living, childcare, sending children back to school and all of the costs that families have to bear. They do so on very low and unsustainable levels of pay. Many soldiers see a long-term career in the Defence Forces as unsustainable and unviable. Those are the words they use. That is why for the sake of their families they are unfortunately leaving in their droves. Defence Forces personnel are among the worst paid workers in the public service.

This is relevant to the Minister's portfolio. There are Defence Forces families that are reliant on the working family payment. The fact that many families cannot make ends meet means they are dependent on welfare transfers simply to get by. Imagine people who work in the public service not being paid a living wage. Imagine people who put their lives on the line and who are the front line for this State getting welfare transfers because the State will not pay them what they are due. They legitimately ask for a pay increase to compensate, in the first instance, what was taken from them when FEMPI cuts were imposed on them by others in this House. Pay was unilaterally taken from them by previous Governments and all they are looking for is justice and fair work. They are also looking to be represented by a trade union or representative body. We hear from the Cabinet meeting that there will be some movement in the area of pay and allowances which, as the Defence Forces themselves are saying, it is too little, too late. Some form of yellow-pack collective bargaining and trade union membership has also been proposed. Does the Minister accept the words of Commandant Berry when he says this is too little, too late? Does she accept that an awful lot more needs to be done to ensure that these workers are paid a fair wage? Does she accept that it is unacceptable that welfare transfers are being paid to these workers? Will she commit to full collective bargaining rights for all members of our Defence Forces?

I thank the Deputy for his question, which is very topical as the Cabinet is currently meeting to address this issue. The report that was prepared by the independent Public Service Pay Commission is either being discussed or has been approved by Cabinet at this stage and will be published later by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. The report of the independent commission is the outcome of the Government's recognition of the challenges surrounding recruitment and pay issues in the Defence Forces. It is not an abstract thing. It was prioritised over other groups in the Public Sector Pay Commission in the first instance because of how seriously the Government takes its commitment to the people who serve us on a daily basis. The recommendations will be published later on. I hope they will go a long way to addressing some of the concerns the Deputy has raised, those raised by Mr. Berry this morning and other representations that have been made. Families have come to each of us in recent months expressing their concerns and difficulties.

I am not at liberty to go through the details of the report although I am aware that everybody probably knows most of them already.

The papers have done so.

I like the job I have and I do not want to get into trouble for saying something that has not been agreed at Cabinet. There will be a press conference this afternoon and all of the details arising from the commission will be given. They will set out exactly what has been agreed. It will then be over to the men and women of our Defence Forces to decide whether they accept the proposal.

They have no choice.

That is not as full an answer as the Deputy would like but it is all I am in a position to give him at the moment.

The problem is that we have already seen this. It has been leaked. We are reading it in the papers. We have a fair sense of what is being proposed and discussed at Cabinet. We have very senior current and former members of the Defence Forces saying it is not enough. These are really genuine concerns that members of the Defence Forces have. It is soul-destroying for someone doing a job as important as being in the Naval Service or the Army or any of the Defence Forces not to be able to pay the bills and not to have even a living wage. Yesterday, the technical group that calculates the living wage produced an increased figure. Again yesterday in this House, the Taoiseach turned his face against introducing a living wage, even in the public sector. He is still saying to these workers that he is not prepared to pay them what is necessary to put food on the table, pay their rent or mortgage, pay for their children going to school or meet the cost of living. It is very clear that because of this, members of the Defence Forces are leaving in their droves. That is the message the Government is giving them. It is too little, too late and an awful lot more needs to be done. I am asking the Minister again if she will commit to ensuring that members of the Defence Forces get the just pay increases they need, full restoration of all cuts that were taken and sustainable wages. The Minister did not answer the question in respect of full collective bargaining rights. They have the same right as anybody else to be represented in terms of their working conditions.

Respectfully, while it might make a good soundbite, the Deputy knows full well that I do not have the authority to answer his questions in the affirmative. All I can say is that I have the authority to represent a Government that has a commitment to our Defence Forces and that is why the Public Service Pay Commission sought to address this issue as a priority. That is why the range of allowances, including the military service allowance, security day allowance, patrol duty allowance, Army Ranger Wing allowance and bomb disposal team allowance, as well as the return of premium rates for the weekends, have all been under consideration by the commission and will be presented in a document this afternoon for our Defence Forces to appraise and decide whether they will accept it. The priority from this Government is to ensure-----

They have no choice about accepting it. They do not have a trade union.

I am sorry, I cannot hear the Deputy when I am speaking.

The Minister without interruption.

It is great to see Deputy Ó Snodaigh has converted to the side of the Defence Forces.

I call Deputy Howlin.

I wish to return to the widely leaked announcement, confirmed by the Minister, that the Government is to sign off on €10 million of extra allowances for the Defence Forces today, or so we are led to believe.

This follows on from a report by the Public Service Pay Commission into the recruitment and retention crisis that we all acknowledge exists in our Defence Forces. There was, however, a clear flaw in the remit given to the Public Service Pay Commission for the work it was set in this regard. The commission was not permitted to examine the issue of core pay. A pay commission was prohibited from examining core pay.

Ireland is now in a situation where the economy has recovered, the cost of living is going up and there is a widespread view across the House - as the Minister has acknowledged - and across the country, that the Defence Forces have been left behind and need a particular focus and an upgrade in pay and conditions. In these exceptional circumstances why did the Government not include in the terms of reference of the Public Service Pay Commission the ability to look at the core pay of the Defence Forces? Every national pay agreement - two of which I was involved in - is held together with any number of sub-agreements and special arrangements. Given the scale of the crisis in the Defence Forces there is no reason this could not have been done.

It is reported there would be a 10% increase in the military services allowances but what does this mean in real terms? It means an extra payment resulting in an increase of between €4.20 and €12.30 per week. I do not believe the Government seriously thinks this would make an impact on the requirements for our Defence Forces' men and women. Having road tested the response in the media for the last week, and finding it to be seriously inadequate, apparently the Government has made one last minute adjustment by proposing another review to be announced this afternoon. This time it is for the 2,500 members of the Defence Forces who are specialists. This is simply a case of the issue that needs to be addressed being pushed down the road. I imagine the intention is to probably kick it beyond the next general election.

What does the Minister have to say to the thousands of men and women in our Defence Forces who need their pay increased today? Why did the Government not include an examination of core pay - which is the nub of the issue - in the review's terms of reference, a review the Government has vaunted every time the matter was raised in this House in the last months?

I feel that my ears are not hearing what the Deputy has suggested given that he was the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform for five years and central to the establishment of the public service stability agreement, which has been tested time and again but has always held firm. That the Deputy would suggest we break with the public service stability agreement and put paid to the 1.75% pay increase - coming this September anyway - with a view for one section of the public sector-----

I did not say that. The Minister is making it up now.

The Minister without interruption please.

Does the Deputy want me to answer or will I just sit down and he can carry on?

Is that the Minister's answer?

Does the Deputy want me to answer?

The Minister will continue please.

The Public Service Pay Commission was challenged with addressing the issues we have around recruitment and retention. This is the report its has come up with today that was charged with looking specifically at the issues we have, which are well documented, around the Permanent Defence Force and the Naval Service recruitment and retention issues. The report, which will be issued this afternoon, is the commission's suggestions for addressing that. The Deputy can reject them if he wants to but I believe it is more important that our Permanent Defence Force and Naval Service will consider there are items in the report that are enough satisfy them at this stage, while we then move on to the next section of the public service pay agreement.

The truth of the matter is that the issue of core pay was excluded from the review and it is not the independent review of the commission. The Public Service Pay Commission has said that its hands were tied behind its back because the terms of reference precluded it from looking at the issue of core pay. The Minister is aware that there is any amount of wriggle room available in these agreements. The Government found it for the nurses - rightly so - and found it for the Garda when it was put under pressure. Because the Government knows the Defence Forces cannot strike, its members are to be treated differently and they are not to have the increase in their actual pay to which everyone in this House and everybody in the trade union movement would agree they are entitled. I ask the Minister to not hide behind the review of the pay commission when it was the Government that preset the terms and the outcome by not allowing the commission to look at the issue of core pay. Will the Government now acknowledge that what it is offering will not be adequate to meet the legitimate demands of our Defence Forces' men and women? Will it agree to have a speedy review of core pay now and not just for a subset of the Army, who are the 2,500 specialists, but for all 8,500 men and women who serve our nation with such distinction?

I shall ask Deputy Howlin a direct question. Is he asking us to abandon the public service stability agreement that is currently in play-----

You did it for the nurses-----

-----and to start negotiations all over again with our entire public sector body?

The Minister-----

Deputy Howlin was the public expenditure Minister for five years under the most difficult times. He was the most prudent and careful person-----

The Minister should not be so patronising.

-----but now is being entirely reckless today with the public sector agreement deal, which the Deputy knows needs to be maintained by all of us. What is on offer today is that the Public Service Pay Commission, having been charged with looking at issues around retention and recruitment, will offer its best endeavours to try to address those issues.

The terms of reference were fixed.