The issue of rural crime and the devastating harm it does to the fabric of rural communities is still a matter of significant and ongoing concern. The anger was palpable at a packed meeting held recently in Toomevara, County Tipperary. People attending that meeting expressed their view that effectively nothing has changed in recent years. They still feel as vulnerable as ever and that there are not enough gardaí or resources, as well as not enough meaningful sanctions in place against those who repeatedly commit these types of heinous crimes.

One of the related issues that emerged, however, was a clear sense that the legal aid system in this State is broken. People in rural Ireland feel that the system is totally stacked against them. Regarding costs, the amounts involved are truly staggering. I will go further and state that the costs associated with civil and criminal legal aid are utterly obscene and unjustifiable. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, confirmed to me in a reply to a parliamentary question that more than €605 million has been allocated for legal aid from 2011 to 2017. That is an astonishing amount of money and demonstrates that absolutely nothing is being done to reduce the outlandish fees being paid to provide this service. Information I have received shows that the cost of criminal and legal aid for each of the years from 2011 to 2017 has ranged from €49 million to €58 million. That is a staggering amount of money.

That was at a time when Garda stations were closed left, right and centre throughout the country. It was also at a time when Garda overtime was drastically cut in Tipperary and when vehicles and other tools of the policing trade were not available to the Garda. There were constant reviews of the resources available and constant cutbacks. The average cost of civil legal aid during the same period shows that it never dropped below €30 million per year. Imagine what that amount of money, or even half of it, could do to support and resource members of our Garda, who do a tremendous job day and night, despite being under-resourced and understaffed. Indeed, there was an increase of €9 million in the costs incurred for legal aid from 2011 to 2017. There has been a steady increase in that time and it is a nice little economy for certain people.

The former Minister for Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald, promised as far back as September 2016 that the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Act 1962 was being reviewed. She also stated that the Department was preparing legislation to update the law and introduce powers to secure contributions from defendants, introduce more rigorous means testing and implement stronger sanctions against abuses. It is blatantly obvious that none of these things have come to pass. There is no will to do that. Instead, we are witnessing the fleecing of the nation's resources by a criminal element and the absolute abuse of the system. Although designed to protect rights, that system is now radically undermining the safety of entire communities. If we continue at this rate then the provision of legal aid will have cost us more than €1 billion within a few years. That will be at a time when the resources of the State will already be under significant pressure due to the full fallout from Brexit and the possible damage to the rural economy from the Mercosur deal.

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath.

I am nearly finished. Nóiméad amháin, más é toil an Leas-Chinn Comhairle. Will the Taoiseach, therefore, prioritise a full and immediate reform of the system in order that the costs can be contained? More importantly, will he do that so the criminals who repeatedly terrorise rural communities do not feel as if they have a never-ending pot of legal resources to attack rural communities?

Crime and the fear of crime is a matter of great concern to communities all over our State. There are victims of crime, unfortunately, all over our State. We should not see this as a rural versus urban issue. We do have a serious issue with rural crime. I represent an urban constituency, however, as do many people here, and I assure the Deputy that the threat of and fear of crime is as worrisome in west Dublin as in west Tipperary. It is wrong, therefore, to characterise this issue in the context of a rural versus urban divide that does not exist when it comes to crime. Sadly, crime levels are actually higher in urban areas than they are in rural areas.

Turning to what is being done, the Government is investing in An Garda Síochána. Garda numbers have now increased to 14,000 and that is the highest overall total for a long time. We have also extended the operation of armed support units, ASUs, across all six Garda regions and have increased the budget of An Garda Síochána to €1.7 billion. That is the highest Garda budget ever. We are also implementing the recommendations of the O'Toole Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland to ensure that we have a more modern and fit-for-purpose police service. That implementation is co-ordinated by my Department and is under way and on track.

Turning to the matter of legal aid, the cost of that programme is very high. I agree with the Deputy on that point. We have to find a correct balance in this area. On one hand, we need to protect the taxpayer from facing very high costs and having to pay very high legal fees for others while on the other hand, we also need to have a justice system that ensures that people have representation in court and get a fair trial. We have seen instances in other countries where there have been court cases and criminal cases which have been very much stacked against the accused. We must bear in mind that everyone in a democracy is innocent until proven guilty. I do not know if the Deputy has seen the film "If Beale Street Could Talk", but it gives an example of what happens in other countries where there is inequality in the courts and the accused is not given proper legal representation or is represented by a public defender, who may be somebody on a low salary or not of the same standard as the prosecution. In a democracy and in a free country, the right to a fair trial is really important and that is not something I would want us to give up. We could in particular see vulnerable people and communities and minority communities ending up getting an unfair outcome from courts if the system was stacked up against them. I know it is a complicated area but it is an area where we need to tread carefully. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty and everyone is entitled to fair representation in court.

The Taoiseach's reply is quite frivolous. I never suggested there was not crime in Dublin. If we turn on the news any day of the week we can see how horrific the situation is in the city. Ordinary members of An Garda Síochána, however, will confirm that in Dublin they can get backup within minutes from another station or benefit from other resources. In Carrick-on-Suir, however, it would be necessary to wait for two hours for assistance while it could be three hours in places like Ballyporeen or Toomevara. That is the difference. We do not have the numbers in those places.

I never suggested that people were not innocent until proven guilty. I ask the Taoiseach to be honest and to tackle the scourge of, the waste in and the abuse of the free legal aid system. I of course believe in free legal aid but it should be a case of two strikes and then a person is out. We had promises from the former Minister for Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald - she has now gone to Europe and I wish her well - that we would reform this system. It has not been reformed, however. Something is blocking the reform of this system. It is a scandal to be able to go into any court any day of the week and see the carry on. I am referring to what is happening outside on the steps as well as inside the court itself. Marauding gangs are getting the best of lawyers while ordinary victims have to pay for legal representation and pay dearly. They are not able to afford that and they have to cut their cloth according to their measure, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle told me.

The amount of money being spent on legal aid is ridiculous while people are being terrorised in their homes by these marauding gangs. I ask the Taoiseach not to try to paint me as acting for rural Ireland and forgetting about the city. I ask him as well not to try to paint me as stating that people are not entitled to legal aid. They are of course. The concept of being innocent until proven guilty is very important to me.

I know all about it and ask the Government to, please, deal with the situation. Its members trot out figures about resources, but we just do not have them. The Government must cut out the waste and tackle the fat cats who are getting the money. It does not want to touch them at all, nor does any of the bigger parties. That is where the rot is.

I am not sure if I picked up a question, but I acknowledge that the cost of legal aid is very high. I also acknowledge that the Deputy has acknowledged that people are innocent until proven guilty-----

Of course.

-----and entitled to legal representation, even if it is the third or fourth time they have been accused.

It could be 100 times.

This matter is being studied by the Minister. He is exploring means by which we might be able to reduce the cost of legal aid, but there are also constitutional issues. Under the Constitution people have a right to access the courts. We also need to bear that in mind.

It could be 60 or 100 times.