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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Bank bailout and guarantee

Summary

Brendan Howlin questioned the cost of the bank bailout and argued the decisive mistake was the bank guarantee supported by the Taoiseach's party. The Taoiseach replied that the guarantee was intended to protect deposits and savings, distinguished it from the later bailouts, and said some of the money from rescued banks could and would be recovered.

I will stay within my time allocation, as is normal. The Comptroller and Auditor General has analysed the cost of the bank bailout in his annual report for 2018. The Taoiseach will recall, as will the House, that my party opposed the bank bailout, which was supported by the Taoiseach's party, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin. The cost of the bank bailout, set out by the Comptroller and Auditor General, was €64 billion. This year, many years after the bailout, gross voted current and capital expenditure together, or everything we spend on vital infrastructure in hospitals and schools and on social protection, is €66 billion. The amount we gave to bail out the banks is almost equal to that. The figure of €66 million is the amount we voted in this House this year to run every Department of State and everything we will spend on buildings and infrastructure. It is truly a staggering sum of money. We will get a portion of it back through dividends and from the sale of bank shares. However, the Comptroller and Auditor General estimates that the net cost to the people of Ireland will still remain at €45 billion, with a recurring cost of between €1.1 billion and €1.3 billion every year to repay the interest on the money borrowed to bail out the banks. Bank of Ireland required a smaller bailout and has repaid the taxpayers' investment in it. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General concludes, however, that none of the other banks will repay the money given by the people of Ireland. At the same time, the banks are profitable and there is pressure on the Government to remove the cap of €500,000 on bankers' pay. I hope and believe that the Taoiseach understands that most people would find any such suggestion repulsive.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report suggests that we need to introduce new ways for the banks to repay the money the people put into them. In our budget proposals, which will be published tomorrow, we will suggest a modest increase of the bank levy to recover an additional €250 million. The levy is currently scheduled to end in 2021, which clearly cannot be tolerated. Does the Taoiseach agree that the banking sector owes a huge debt to the people and that we, as Members of the Irish Parliament, should demand that the banks continue to pay through levies until the debt and interest are fully paid back to the people?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I absolutely agree with the Deputy that the banking sector owes a huge debt to the people but he might be getting his history a little muddled. With respect, he is confusing the bank guarantee with the bank bailout. It is indeed the case that his party opposed the bank guarantee. There were two bank bailouts, however. There was the bailout carried out by Fianna Fáil when in government with the Green Party, namely, that relating to Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide. We will never see that money again because the institutions in question were dead and should not have been bailed out. I opposed that bailout and so did the Deputy's party. There was a second bank bailout, namely, that relating to Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland. Not only did the Deputy not oppose this, he supported it. He was the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform at the time and probably signed the cheque. That was the bank bailout he supported. It happened when the Fine Gael–Labour Party Government was in office; that is a fact. That bailout was correct because Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland are functioning, surviving, living banks. It made sense to save them. They were the pillar banks of the Irish economy at the time. It was necessary to protect people's savings and to continue to have banks that could lend to businesses and issue mortgages.

As the Deputy pointed out, Bank of Ireland has already repaid all the money the State put into it. I believe that Allied Irish Banks will do this also. How will it be done? It will be done through dividends being paid to the Exchequer. That is happening through the bank levy, which the Deputy mentioned, and also through the sale of shares. Already, 25% of Allied Irish Banks has been sold and that has brought billions of euro back for the Exchequer. In due course, and at the right time, the rest will be sold also. That will enable us to recover the money that was put into Allied Irish Banks. The bank bailout of Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland made sense and the money will be recovered. Unfortunately, the money involved in the shameful bailout of Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide will never be recovered.

Comment on this

This is the first time that the Taoiseach's memory of history has been a bit shaky or reconstructed.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Really, no.

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The bottom line is simply that the pivotal moment in history was the voting on the bank guarantee. The Taoiseach and his party supported the bank guarantee. That was the point of no return.

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Which resulted in the two bailouts.

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That is when the indebtedness of the banks was put on the back of the taxpayer. The Taoiseach can grimace as much as he likes but that is the reality. Many regret the decision. As we know, the State was under pressure from the European Central Bank because of potential contagion but the decision was wrong. The Taoiseach confuses it with the recapitalising of the banks that were then in public control. There was no going back on that. We needed to recapitalise the banks or the banking system would have collapsed. The problem now is how to recoup the money. We may have debates about the history but we must ask how we can recoup the people's money? The Taoiseach is stating that we are going to get it back but the Comptroller and Auditor General says otherwise. He says there will be a deficit of €45 billion. I am asking the Taoiseach a very straightforward and simple question. Does he believe all the money invested by the people of Ireland into the banking system should be recouped? The levies should be maintained until the money is recouped. Does the Taoiseach agree that the cap on bankers' pay of €500,000 should remain?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I am of the view that the cap on bankers' pay should remain in place. I have said that previously. We have recovered all the money from Bank of Ireland. We will in time recover all the money from Allied Irish Banks. It will not be possible to recover the money that was put into Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide because those institutions were dead. I do not believe anyone will ever know for sure whether the decision to guarantee the banks on the fateful night in question was right or wrong. One should bear in mind why it was made, however. It was to protect the deposits and savings of the Irish people. Those banks were bust; they were empty. Had it not been for a guarantee-----

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The Taoiseach supported it.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I did. I am explaining the decision now. Those banks were bust and the consequence of the guarantee was to protect the savings of Irish people and Irish businesses. In countries where a different course of action was followed, such as Iceland and Cyprus, it was not just the bondholders who lost their money. Savers did also. That is what would have happened here.

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