I would like to start by extending sympathy to the family and friends of Timmy Hourihane.

A sharp clash is looming between the interests of the church and the interests of the State in Cork city. I refer to the decision of the Sisters of Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary to withdraw from involvement at Bessborough by the end of the year, to attempt to sell the land there and to effectively evict the onsite services which cater to the needs of vulnerable families, especially women and children at the Bessborough campus. These services include fostering services, psychological services, secondary school services, family outreach services, services for children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, and supervised access services. The centre caters for the needs of 50 families every week. Residential accommodation is provided for six vulnerable adults and seven children at Bessborough. Where are these people to go now? Services are provided at Bessborough which will not be found anywhere else in this State. The parent and infant unit is just one example of this. More than 100 people work at this centre. A question mark now hangs over these jobs.

A statement issued by the staff last week said: "The nuns are about to run off with a significant amount of money, leaving none in Ireland to compensate staff or the State for the huge investment that they have made in the family services." This begs the question: is the State going to allow an order of nuns with headquarters outside this State to break up a family centre in which the State has invested €30 million? These are the same Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary who ran the infamous Bessborough mother and baby home, who profited from the illegal sale of children, snatched from their mothers, to the US, Canada and Australia and who to this day have failed to account for the whereabouts of well over 800 children who died. Every June for the past five years people from all over the world have travelled to Bessborough to remember the women and children. Will that ceremony be possible if the lands are in private ownership?

I put it to the Taoiseach that the State should acquire these lands and the buildings constructed upon them preferably by way of nationalisation without compensation to guarantee the future of the family services and the jobs and to allow real discussion with survivors' groups about what work might need to be done to identify the whereabouts of the more than 800 children who died who are missing. Is the State prepared to intervene to defend this family centre and to guarantee those jobs?

I thank the Deputy. I have read a little bit about this issue but I do not have a detailed briefing on it as yet but I will seek one in the coming days. As I understand it, Bessborough already is in private ownership. It is not in public ownership. The nationalisation of anyone's property, whether they be a private individual, a company or a religious order, without compensation is, of course, unconstitutional. It is unlikely that a referendum would be passed in this country allowing the Government to confiscate anyone's property without compensation whether they be a private individual, a company or a religious order. This will have to be a matter of negotiation involving the owners, the service providers and the Government. Our objective in doing so will be to ensure that services are protected, those who use those services are protected and that jobs are protected as well.

This is a test case. Religious orders are selling up not just in Bessborough but in other locations across the country. They are selling lands and buildings, which is having a detrimental impact on State funded services. We have another example of this at St. Vincent's Convent on the north side of Cork. Therefore, this is a litmus test for the Government. Will it stand up for the interests of our people or will it bend the knee once more to the religious orders? If the nuns sell that land and force the services there to relocate, that would have a big detrimental effect. That centre is more than the sum of its parts. One cannot break up a hospital and distribute bits of it here, there and everywhere and still have the same effect. It is the same with a one-stop-shop family centre such as this.

Nationalisation is not something that is unknown. It was done with the banks when the Government decided to bail them out and put their debts onto the backs of the taxpayers. There would be widespread support among ordinary people for the seizure of those lands without compensation, guaranteeing jobs, guaranteeing the services and opening up a real discussion with the survivors groups.

Attack the religious again.

I thank the Deputy. It is important to acknowledge the fact that, for many years, religious orders of many types provided healthcare, education and social services, long before the State was willing to enter those areas-----

Yes, it is because the State would not.

They are still doing it.

-----and, for a very long time, provided those services in education, health and social services at a discount to the State.

It was easy when they had slave labour.

Even when I was in primary school in Blanchardstown, the church still continued to contribute a certain amount of money to the running of my primary school. We need to be balanced about this and not use this as an opportunity to bash religious orders gratuitously. Yes, they have done a lot of things wrong in the past, but we should acknowledge a lot of the good they did as well, particularly in providing healthcare, education and social services.

That is what Deputy Barry is doing by raising this question.

With regard to the particular question, this, of course, has to be a matter of negotiation. We will do anything reasonable within our power to make sure the family services there, the jobs there and those who use those services are protected.