We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

National children's hospital costs and safety

Summary

Deputy Micheál Martin presses the Taoiseach on escalating costs, health and safety concerns, procurement board resignations, and the need for Oireachtas oversight. The Taoiseach defends progress on the project, says oversight exists through the health committee, and points to site visits and construction milestones amid repeated interruptions.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his statement, with which I agree.

On Leaders Questions on 1 October I raised with the Taoiseach concerns about the escalating costs at the national children's hospital. He undertook to reply to me. Last week, I received his written response, which again clearly points to escalating costs at the national children's hospital. It is all a far cry from April 2016, when the Taoiseach, then Minister for Health, announced that the hospital would cost €650 million all-in. Those costs increased year by year and the current Minister for Health had to apologise to Deputy Barry Cowen in the Dáil for misleading information about those costs. As the Taoiseach said in his reply to me, the guaranteed maximum price established through the two-stage tender process does not provide a contractual ceiling on cost and significant residual risks remain of additional further costs. These include the risk of construction inflation in excess of 4% which are allowed by the contract to be recovered.

We also learned from the Taoiseach's response and from the August minutes that the main contractor has submitted claims to the board, which I understand to be quite significant as well. For some reason, ICT is not covered in these costs, neither are the costs associated with the children's hospital integration programme. I suggest that is designed to reduce the overall cost for appearances and so on. I ask the Taoiseach to give me specifics on the costs of the ICT programme and the integration initiative.

The Taoiseach will recall that PwC's report on the construction of the new children's hospital was a shocking indictment of a badly-managed project. Critical phrases leap off the pages of that report, such as "Significant failures" and the "lack of sufficiently comprehensive or robust planning". The report said the understanding of the risk profile was "poor at all levels of the governance structure" and that "red flags ... were missed." The report said the business case: "contained material errors and did not adhere to the Public Spending Code." It also described the execution as: "poorly coordinated and controlled."

We have learned from the August minutes, as revealed in the Irish Examiner yesterday, that the State's chief procurement officer, Mr. Paul Quinn, who appears not to have alerted the Government to the original spiralling costs of the hospital, has resigned from the hospital board. This follows the resignations of Mr. Tom Costello and the project director, Mr. John Pollack. The minutes state that all we have at the moment is "a best estimate" on the overall cost of this project and that a significant increase in financial claims is being made by the contractors at the Dublin site, about which the board is very concerned. Can the Taoiseach indicate to me why Mr. Quinn has resigned? Does he know something the rest of us do not? How robust are the procedures, given the resignation of the chairman, director and the State procurement officer? Would the Government agree to an oversight mechanism from the Oireachtas to rigorously monitor the costs of this project, given its capacity to devour the health capital budget and delay and perhaps prevent other badly-needed projects from developing?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

At the outset, I want to welcome the Ceann Comhairle's earlier statement. The integrity of the voting process is at the centre of our democracy. Whether it is people going to the polling station to cast their vote on election day or referendum day or whether it is Deputies or Senators voting in these Houses, people need to know the system is robust and valid. I welcome the fact you have acted swiftly, that an investigation is being carried out, that there will be a report this week and I welcome the fact the Deputies concerned will be invited to make statements to the House on Thursday to explain their roles in all of this.

On the Deputy's question, the cost of the capital element of the national children's hospital project, as agreed by Government in December 2018, is €1.433 billion. There has been no change in the Government decision since then, and that includes VAT. The €1.433 billion is the cost of the capital build in the project. That is the main hospital at the St. James' Hospital campus, as well as the urgent care centres at Connolly Hospital Blanchardstown and at Tallaght University Hospital. There have been references to figures such as €1.7 billion or even €2 billion but those figures can only be approached when lots of other elements of the project are included such as ICT equipment, the electronic health record and the entire cost of the children's hospital integration programme - which is decommissioning Crumlin and Temple Street hospitals and is moving those hospitals to the new site. Those figures also include pre-2013 expenditure on the failed attempt to build the national children's hospital at the Mater Hospital, which I know the Deputy will be familiar with, having been involved in same. They also include the children's research and innovation centre, as well as contingency provision. There is also a clause in the contract to allow for an uplift if the rate of construction inflation exceeds 4%.

These figures we often hear used such as €1.72 billion, are much more than the cost of the project at St. James' Hospital. People are including Connolly, Tallaght and the Mater project that never happened, as well as the moves out of Crumlin and Temple Street, the cost of ICT equipment, the electronic health record, the entire integration programme and the research and innovation centre.

On claims, as was stated last June at the joint committee, it is possible, as is the case in any construction contract, for a contractor to make claims for additional expenditure that was not covered in the contract.

Where those occur they are independently assessed before any decision is made on whether they should be granted.

With regard to the resignation of Mr. Paul Quinn from the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, it happened in July 2019 and is not news and certainly not new news. He has not resigned from his day job working as a civil servant but he has resigned from his position on the board. His decision on this is a matter for himself. I do not know the reasons for it nor do I have any reason to believe there is a conspiracy theory behind it.

Comment on this

We have this kind of detached "It's none of my business". The Minister for Health says it is none of his business. The State procurement officer resigned from the board of the most expensive capital project in the history of the State and it is nobody's business, the Government is not a bit worried about it and it is his decision and a personal decision.

Comment on this

It is a conspiracy theory. I have deliberately reiterated for the Taoiseach the criticism of the PwC report on how badly managed the project was until quite recently. We have had the resignation of the director. Has the Minister for Health met the State procurement officer? Has the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform met the State procurement officer? The project is a matter of genuine and reasonable concern to the Oireachtas. The minutes do not give room for any confidence. Surely the Minister for Health should meet the board, given the alarming levels and high volume of safety issues. It is in the minutes.

Comment on this

You should visit the site.

Comment on this

You should visit the site and meet the health and safety officers.

Comment on this

You have never visited the site.

Comment on this

Through the Chair, it is a high volume and there twice have been alerts in the minutes.

Comment on this

He was an engineer.

Comment on this

I call for a full, transparent presentation on what the concerns are about health and safety on the site.

Comment on this

The Deputy's time is up.

Comment on this

Relative to other sites, what is going on there? More importantly, why is the State procurement officer getting off the bus early?

Comment on this

Deputy please, the time is up.

Comment on this

Does he know something we do not know? I ask the Taoiseach whether the Government will now agree, given the history of the project, to an Oireachtas oversight mechanism, perhaps through the finance and expenditure committee, to monitor the project very closely?

Comment on this

Deputy, you are way over time.

Comment on this

There have to be serious question marks about how robust the process is in terms of coming in within some reasonable budget.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Mr. Quinn was appointed to the board in his individual capacity and he resigned in his individual capacity. It is up to him to say whether he had a particular reason. I am not aware of a particular reason for his decision to resign from the board last July. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health has oversight over the project.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

As recently as June, the chairman of the hospital development board, Mr. Fred Barry, came before the committee and was asked a lot of questions. I am sure the committee can do so again. I do not think anyone in the House would have any objection to the Oireachtas taking an interest in the project.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach will be well able to open it.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I believe the committee has been invited to visit the site. I believe that, unfortunately, only a small number of Deputies have taken up the invitation to take a look at the site with their own eyes.

Comment on this

Any high-vis jackets left?

Comment on this

Put on your hard hats and get your photographs taken. We will have to queue up behind you.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

What I can say is that I had the privilege and honour of visiting the urgent care centre at Connolly Hospital, which is now up and running. It is not fully commissioned but is now up and running. It is the first element of the hospital and children are being seen in the urgent care centre.

Comment on this

There are a lot of design faults.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The outpatient element is fully open and already the number of children waiting to see a general paediatrician has decreased by 30% as a consequence of the fact the facility has been opened and there is now more outpatient capacity for children who need to see a paediatrician.

Comment on this

Health and safety.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Tallaght is under construction and will be finished next year. Construction of the main hospital on the St. James's site has reached the point where the scaffolding is at roof level.

Comment on this

Congratulations.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

This was promised by successive Governments for decades.

Comment on this

Health and safety.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Fianna Fáil even spent a lot of money not delivering it and now it is being done.

Comment on this

Health and safety.

Comment on this

Deputies, please.

Comment on this

Will the Taoiseach undertake to send me the details on the health and safety aspect of the site?

Comment on this

Deputy Martin has gone over his time already.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I cannot. I do not know.

Comment on this

I do not know; I do not know.

Comment on this

Can we hear Deputy McDonald please?

Comment on this