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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Children waiting for healthcare

Summary

Micheál Martin highlights the huge number of children waiting for hospital and primary care, calling it a disgrace. The Taoiseach accepts the problem but points to falling waiting lists, the NTPF and extra staffing; the exchange continues over the fund, recruitment and consultant pay equality.

My colleague, Deputy Donnelly, who is our health spokesperson, has compiled the most comprehensive picture so far of the number of children waiting for healthcare in Ireland. It is not a good story and reflects quite badly on the Government. He has put together a staggering list of more than 214,000 children waiting for healthcare. Some 117,000 children are waiting for hospital appointments and treatment and another 90,000 are waiting for primary care appointments. One child in four has been waiting for more than a year, according to the list. This includes very sick children in need of urgent surgery. The list includes special needs children in urgent need of therapeutic supports such as speech and language therapy and occupational therapy, to name but two. It includes children waiting for psychology, diagnostic scans and much more.

I will give some examples. In ear, nose and throat, ENT, close to 3,000 children have been waiting over a year for an appointment. In paediatric cardiology more than 1,200 children have been waiting over a year for an appointment out of a total list of close to 5,000. In dermatology there is an overall list of 4,500, with 2,129 waiting for over a year. In ophthalmology, 4,000 children have been waiting over a year for an appointment. In psychology there are more huge figures, with more than 2,500 waiting over a year out of a total list of 7,000. We are aware of the issues in respect of mental health, specifically adolescent mental health.

This underpins the experiences of many in this House in dealing with many parents and families, who are exasperated, frustrated and very anxious about the failure to get assessments and regular access to therapeutic interventions. We know that early intervention, diagnosis and treatment are the key to a child's treatment, personal development and optimal outcomes. Worryingly, these figures understate the true picture. They exclude oral health, for example, and many diagnostic categories are not covered by the HSE. They are a terrible indictment of our health service and the Government's stewardship of it. There is a shortage of consultants, therapists and specialist nurses and there is, despite what the Taoiseach says, a moratorium on recruitment in place.

Will the Government remove the hiring embargo to enable the fast recruitment of doctors, therapists, radiographers and so forth? Will it remove the new entrant pay inequality for consultants in order that we can hire the number of specialists we need? Will it accelerate the hiring procedures for such specialist and clinical staff, whom we urgently require? For example, there is a chronic shortage of radiographers in Temple Street Hospital. In the interim, will the Taoiseach accelerate the provision of additional hospital beds for children, particularly in ICUs, rehab and ward beds across the system?

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I note at the outset that it is very sad that there are so many people, so many children, on waiting lists for healthcare and therapies. It is not good enough. I know that and I feel it very much in my constituency work with the parents and children I meet from time to time who tell me of their personal stories.

It is only right, however, that we in this House acknowledge that waiting lists for healthcare are now falling. The NTPF figures show that the waiting lists for outpatient appointments - that is, for people waiting to see a specialist - have been falling consistently for three or four months in a row. It took years and years of investment and additional staff but we are now finally seeing those outpatient waiting lists falling. When I became Taoiseach two and a half years ago, more than 60,000 people had been waiting for more than 12 weeks for an operation or procedure. That figure is now down to approximately 38,000, or over a third in two and a half years. Much of this is down to the investment through the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, of which I know Deputy Micheál Martin was very supportive and which he advocated. We also see that the waiting times for general paediatrics are down approximately 30% so far this year. This is because of the new urgent care centre that has been opened in Connolly Hospital. The centre has a dedicated paediatric outpatient department. That is a big turnaround in one year. We also see that in child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, for example, the waiting list is down approximately 20% in the past year. This is not down to any waiting list initiative but to structural changes that have been led by the Minister of State, Deputy Daly, in employing a large number of assistant psychologists, moving away from a psychiatric model to a model based more on psychology. That is real progress as outpatient lists now have been falling for three or four months in a row; inpatient procedural lists are down by approximately one third from where they were two and a half years ago. Waiting times for general paediatrics - I know it is only general paediatrics, but that is an important part of paediatrics - is down 30% in the past year; and CAMHS waiting lists are down 20% over the past year. It took years and years of investment and additional staff to reverse the damage that was done, but I am glad I can now say and stand over the fact that waiting lists are falling, not increasing, after a very long time during which they went in the wrong direction.

We will continue to invest. There is an additional €1 billion in the budget for the HSE next year. The Connolly centre has opened and is helping already. We need to open that over weekends and in the evenings as well, which we are working to do in 2020. The urgent care centre in Tallaght for children will open next year, which is a big step forward as well. The main new children's hospital, on the St. James's Hospital campus, with an individual room for every child and space for a parent to sleep in every room, will open in 2023. After so many false starts, including €35 million wasted on the Mater Hospital project, we finally have that hospital at roof level. The windows are already in on one level. We are working on moving speech and language therapy into schools, which I think will work out, but that has only started. We will see how that pilot plays out.

To answer the Deputy's question, there is not a moratorium on recruitment. We have 15,000 more staff in our health service than we had a few years ago. We have more staff in our health service than we had this time last year. Managers can fill positions as long as those positions are budgeted for.

We are working on consultant pay. We are willing to make an offer to doctors with regard to consultant pay - we will give full pay equality for consultants, provided consultants commit to working in the public service and the public service only.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I thank the Taoiseach.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That will be the first step in our plan to remove private practice from public hospitals.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Micheál Martin has one minute.

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The Taoiseach acknowledges that it is shocking that so many children have to wait for so long. He referred to the NTPF. That was brought in against his best wishes.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is not correct.

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The former Minister, Senator James Reilly, got rid of the fund. He did not have to but he got rid of it because of his ideological position on it. It was a disastrous decision and it took confidence and supply to restore the fund.

That said, the Taoiseach is still in denial about the recruitment embargo. I have a copy of an advertisement for an audiology post in July 2018. It is a key post that is needed in the southern part of the country. Moving on to 30 July 2019, an individual had to give up a private sector job under the belief that they had a contractual arrangement. The post could not be processed. We are now coming to Christmas and this continues. According to the HSE: "There is no timeframe as to when the pay bill controls will cease." There has been an active moratorium on key posts. Let us look at Temple Street. I think 30 radiographer posts were approved for Temple Street and we have 19 in position. There is a moratorium and there has been over the past 12 months, which has exacerbated this issue. Pay inequality has gone on for the past number of years. The Taoiseach gets partisan about the children's hospital, its roof level, the Mater and so on.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call the Taoiseach to respond.

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No one in this House can dictate the planning process.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is not like Deputy Micheál Martin to be partisan.

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I am just making a point to the Taoiseach.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call the Taoiseach to respond.

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It is a serious matter for the parents of the children concerned.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call the Taoiseach to respond. Deputy Micheál Martin cannot go to two minutes for a one-minute question.

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Telling them that we are at roof level is of no consequence for a mother and a father who want to get a psychologist appointment-----

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

We cannot go to two minutes for a one minute question.

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-----or urgent appointments for hospital outpatient treatment and therapy. The Taoiseach should ask anyone in the House.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

We have to change the rules.

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The waiting times for therapists are shocking, appalling and that continues to be the case.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Micheál Martin, please. No wonder I am being criticised.

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Pat the Cope Gallagher An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

That is fine. I am here to implement the rules.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I welcome Deputy Micheál Martin's acknowledgement that there has been a considerable reduction, of approximately 30%, in patients waiting for operations and procedures since the middle of 2017.

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Because of our initiative.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

And on a bipartisan basis, I want to acknowledge that the investment through the NTPF has worked. I know those on the left have an ideological objection to using the fund.

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The Taoiseach did as well.

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Put it into the public system.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is something that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael did together. I am glad that has worked and I am happy to acknowledge Fianna Fáil's role in encouraging us-----

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In privatising.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----to increase funding for the NTPF, which has now worked and means that the number of people waiting for more than 12 weeks for a hip replacement, knee replacement, tonsils, veins, angiograms and so on is approximately half of what it was as recently as summer 2017.

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Most of those go to Belfast.

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Leo Varadkar The Taoiseach Fine Gael

There is not a moratorium. Any post that is funded can be filled. There are more people working in our health service than there were this time last year, which is just a simple fact.

I will answer the question on pay inequality for consultants again. I have discussed this as Taoiseach, working with the Ministers, Deputies Donohoe and Harris, and we are willing to make an offer to consultants that we are willing to fully reverse pay inequality, but only for what are called type A posts. We want full pay equality for consultants but only if they commit to working in the public service only. That will be the first step towards disentangling the public-private mix that exists in our public hospitals in line with the Sláintecare vision, and I hope they are up for it.

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