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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Debenhams workers

Summary

Deputy McDonald pressed the Government to do more for Debenhams workers and criticised its response as too weak and slow. The Taoiseach said the company treated workers badly, the State would support them, and legislation on separation of property from trading entities would be examined, though it would not resolve their immediate plight.

Today, I want to raise the issue of the Debenhams workers. I was alarmed and disappointed with the Taoiseach's response yesterday when these matters were raised. His response was lacklustre and it was not the type of response that I believe is required from Government.

As the Taoiseach will know, the Debenhams workers have been in dispute with their employer for some months now. At the height of the Covid emergency, they were on the picket line and they are on the picket line still, 24-7, standing up for their right to be treated with respect but also fighting a battle that has a much wider significance than just Debenhams. Debenhams has used a tactical liquidation of its Irish stores to walk away from all of its responsibilities to its workers. It is now the intention of Debenhams to take possession of all assets and stock in its Irish stores to funnel the profits through its British operations, at the same time leaving its workers here high and dry.

The Debenhams workers are not the first to be treated in this appalling manner by their employer and because of Government inaction, they will not be the last. The use of tactical liquidation is not new to this State. The Taoiseach will recall that in 2015 staff who had given a lifetime of service to Clerys were unceremoniously dumped by their employers and left high and dry. They did not receive their statutory redundancy lump sum, they never got moneys owned in lieu of notice of redundancy or holiday pay and the State was left to foot the bill. This is the blueprint for what is happening in Debenhams. There needs to be immediate intervention by the State and Government. The Taoiseach will recall that in the case of Clerys we all said at that time that this could never happen again, but it has. Now is the time for immediate and effective action.

What the workers are looking for is not unreasonable, it is necessary. They want the Government to intervene and engage with KPMG, the liquidators appointed by the UK parent company. They want the Government to directly intervene with the parent company and they want Debenhams to honour previous agreements to pay two weeks' redundancy per year of service in addition to the statutory redundancy. They want to be treated with respect. They do not want a situation where Debenhams can simply walk away. It is now urgent that the Government act. It is also urgent that we legislate. I want the Taoiseach to move beyond the words he uttered yesterday, which were equivocal and non-committal. I want to hear a firm commitment from him today that the Government will act immediately to directly support these workers and will also act immediately to legislate.

Comment on this

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and the question in regard to the Debenhams workers. My response yesterday was not lacklustre and it was not equivocal in terms of how Debenhams has treated its workers in Ireland. It has treated them very badly and very poorly. The State will do everything it can to support the workers who have been made redundant by the company in the manner described by the Deputy.

The programme for Government outlines the necessity to review legislation, particularly in terms of its utilisation by companies to lay off workers by way of the trading side of the company being insolvent and the separating out of the assets, which are then not available to facilitate the payment of redundancy to workers. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to review the Companies Act with a view to closing off the vehicles or mechanisms by which companies can treat workers so shabbily and badly.

Governments arbitrarily cannot intervene in liquidations as easily as suggested by the Deputy. That said, Debenhams should do the right thing by its workers. It should pay the levels of redundancy agreed in previous engagements. There are obligations on the company in terms of its workers. The Government will do everything it can within the law to support the workers. We will provide every resource possible to enable them to secure their rights and entitlement, but also future employment and other supports they may require to enable them to deal with what has been a very difficult and traumatic situation for them as workers. They have been treated very poorly in that regard. The Government is committed to reviewing that legislation and amending it.

Comment on this

Here is the problem. The State and the Government have not intervened in the appropriate way to protect these workers. I remind the Taoiseach that since 2015 he has been saying that there needs to be a review and a change to the legislation. In regard to the Clerys situation he said, "The most effective intervention is legislative". At that time, he challenged for a review of the law to ensure that this type of behaviour cannot continue. Five years on, the Taoiseach is still talking about reviewing legislation. That is not good enough. Deputy Micheál Martin may be new to the office of Taoiseach but he is not new to Government. Fianna Fáil supported the previous Administration for four long and very difficult years, during which it did precisely zilch, nothing, to ensure that this type of scandalous situation would not happen again.

This afternoon, we will publish legislation in line with the Duffy Cahill report to prevent these kinds of tactical liquidations and insolvencies.

I ask that the Government support this legislation and, furthermore, that we make time before we rise for the summer to ensure we have on our books the right law, which is long overdue to protect the Debenhams workers and all the other vulnerable workers out there at this time of economic crisis, so that this type of scandal cannot happen again. That requires the Taoiseach to act, not to contemplate, push things down the pipe or hide behind complexity but to lead from the front, to act and to legislate.

Comment on this

I think the Deputy was very disingenuous and dishonest in her presentation. I was not in government in 2015 and I have not been in government over the past number of years. We have been in government for one week. That is the reality, unlike the great political untruth and mantra that the Deputy and her party have been peddling for quite some time. It is disingenuous and it does a disservice to the issue. It does not help anybody to make these kinds of disingenuous political attacks on other political parties. It might suit the Deputy politically but it does not actually help anybody or the workers.

Comment on this

Will the Taoiseach tell us what he is going to do?

Comment on this

It is in the programme for Government that there is a commitment to legislating-----

Comment on this

-----in respect of the separation of property from trading entities that is being used. The Tánaiste and Minister will be examining that legislation. That will happen but it is not going to deal with the Debenhams workers' plight, and the Deputy knows that.

Comment on this

I know that the Government will not do anything.

Comment on this

It is important that when we are dealing with workers who have gone through a traumatic situation, it is not to try to raise expectations unrealistically and blame everybody else when it is the company that is fundamentally at fault in its behaviour towards the workers.

Comment on this

It is the Government that is at fault. Legislate.

Comment on this

It was not the previous Government's fault and it is not this Government's fault, but what the Government certainly can do is look at the legislation in dealing with it.

Comment on this