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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Debenhams workers legislation

Summary

Deputy Collins returns to the Debenhams dispute, asking about the arrests and demanding emergency legislation for the workers. The Taoiseach says the issue requires careful changes to company and employment law, not simple emergency legislation, but agrees loopholes must be closed and collective agreements better protected.

I also wish to raise the issue of the Debenhams workers, because I do not think we got an answer that we can stand by. Would the Taoiseach condemn the arrests of the workers this morning? Is it now the policy of the gardaí to arrest workers engaging in peaceful industrial action? To my knowledge, this has never happened before. Occupations have been broken up and workers have been arrested and, indeed, jailed, but only on the basis of a fine, court order or injunction, none of which was issued in this case. Workers were arrested on the basis of trespassing under the public order Act and an act of criminal damage is being investigated by the gardaí in Store Street. Former Debenhams workers are entitled to protest at their disgraceful treatment by a major company, which is still trading and which, as has been mentioned, has £94 million in the bank. We are dealing with a tactical insolvency and the use of the Covid-19 pandemic as a cover. The actions of the liquidator, KPMG, in withdrawing what was a measly offer is also to be condemned.

I note the Taoiseach's point that the expectations of the workers were not very high. To get one extra day's pay per year of service is an insult to those workers and they were rightly very enraged about it.

The situation could have been avoided if the outgoing Government, which the Taoiseach supported in the confidence and supply agreement, had legislated to implement the recommendations of the Duffy Cahill report. This report was commissioned by the then Minister for Jobs, Enterprise, and Innovation in 2015 and presented to that Government in 2016. The Taoiseach is correct that Mandate is constrained by having to work within the legislation but that has to be amended with immediate effect. We have been here over the past number of weeks bringing in emergency legislation, which the Opposition has allowed to go through because it related to Covid-19. This legislation for these workers and for future workers should be brought in as a matter of urgency in the next two weeks. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to introduce this legislation to implement all nine recommendations in that report as a matter of urgency? There may well be a tsunami of closures, bankruptcies and insolvencies as a result of the economic crisis caused by Covid-19. The Taoiseach needs to be prepared and to take action to legislate for the Duffy Cahill report now.

Comment on this

The report did not make specific proposals for changes to the Companies Act 2014; rather its proposals were primarily concerned with amendments to employment law and the company law review group has considered options in respect of company law. The Tánaiste has asked it to do so now with a view to protecting the rights of workers where collective agreements have been arrived at. Clearly there has been a breach of a collective redundancy agreement here by the company, which is in liquidation. The parent company was in examinership but I believe it is now in liquidation and did not want to know about, nor did the examiner, releasing any resources to honour the company’s commitment to the workers in Ireland. Passing the law now would not help the workers in Debenhams right now but would have an impact in the future, which I acknowledge. The review that was asked for will be ready in the fourth quarter of this year. It will be a Government priority to work on that and to bring about changes on that issue.

The Companies Act 2014 needs to be reviewed, for example, to address the practice of companies splitting their operations between trading and property, as we discussed earlier, as well as examining legal provisions that pertain to any sale to a connected party following the insolvency of a company. That is one dimension to this. What should happen is that dialogue should resume between representatives of the key parties and stakeholders here to see if a package can be arrived at through the liquidation process or if resources from that can be allocated to workers. I do not get the sense that it can ever be of the same scale as what they had agreed with the company in the redundancy agreement but one route among a number is that particular one, which should be pursued again. The liquidator should re-engage and resile from any actions that further inflame the situation and make a resolution more intractable in the coming weeks and months.

The workers have been on the picket lines for far too long. It is very difficult for them and their families. This needs to be brought to some resolution so that they can recreate their lives as best they can in a very difficult situation.

Comment on this

The Duffy Cahill report was published in March 2016. We had 2017, 2018 , 2019 and we are now in 2020. The Taoiseach is correct that those workers have been a long time on the picket line - 150 days. When people were told to cocoon at the very start of the restrictions, those workers had to go out there and protect the shop's stock so that it would not be sold off above their heads. They have been out there every single day of the week of the last period of time. We have a duty to those workers to say now that legislation will be brought in immediately as an emergency measure to deal with this.

The Government should put all its resources into doing that in the next week or two. The Taoiseach said it will not affect the Debenhams workers but if he brought in legislation immediately, and I know the unions have raised this with him, the liquidation is still in process so it could impact on those workers if the Government hunted down Debenhams assets to pay the workers. It can be done. The Duffy Cahill report said that the Government should pay the four weeks' redundancy per year of service and then hunt down the assets. The law has to be changed. It is not good enough to leave these workers in this position for the next ten, 20, 30 or 40 days without bringing in legislation. The Taoiseach should bring in emergency legislation now. He has the power to do it. He has done it repeatedly over the past while in terms of emergency legislation to deal with the Covid-19 pandemic. I ask him to do that now for these workers.

Comment on this

It is not as simple as bringing in emergency legislation.

Comment on this

No, but we managed to do it-----

Comment on this

We had to in terms of the Covid payment, the pandemic unemployment payments and the wage subsidy scheme for hundreds of thousands of people.

Comment on this

Why can the Taoiseach not do it for the Debenhams workers?

Comment on this

Exactly. We have to do this.

Comment on this

They were very straightforward measures to give a legislative basis to make sure that workers did not go without during the pandemic, particularly before the summer recess. In this situation, it is about changing company law and bringing in recommendations - a combination of both - that emanate from the Duffy Cahill report. The Duffy Cahill report in itself would not necessarily, in some cases, help a situation similar to that in which the Debenhams workers are but it could not be applied retrospectively and it would not help the workers right now. The focus now should be on what can be done to help the workers involved in this dispute. That is where the practical focus should be, in my view. The review is under way in terms of the law. It has to be informed because company law is not simple.

Comment on this

Four years later-----

Comment on this

New loopholes emerge.

Comment on this

We have got to make sure we do this properly this time. We must ensure that loopholes are boxed off, that there is a greater emphasis on protecting collective agreements in employment law into the future and preventing bad practices in terms of separation of assets from trading income and a whole load of mechanisms that can be used by some companies to exit from their obligations.

Comment on this