Level 5 lockdown and mortgage breaks
Mary Lou McDonald opens by acknowledging the hardship of moving to level 5, then raises the expiry of mortgage breaks and the risk of repossession. The Taoiseach defends the banking and Government approach, and the exchange is interrupted by time limits and procedural interventions.
This morning, people woke up with a great sense of anxiety and uncertainty about the future. Last night's news that the State was to be moved to level 5 from midnight tomorrow until the end of November was the source of this uncertainty and anxiety. I understand fully that this was a hard decision for the Government. I also know that it is an even harder decision for all those who will bear the inevitable brunt of the hardship it will bring. It would be impossible today to overstate the level of concern and, in some cases, distress among our people.
I fully accept that action had to be taken. There is no doubt that the virus is being transmitted exponentially. We now have six weeks to do the things I believe the Government should have done during the summer months, when we achieved a very low rate of transmission of Covid-19. At that time, through collective action and personal sacrifice, we suppressed the virus and, with the right plan, I am absolutely confident we can do it again. We must not, however, lose this second window of opportunity to build capacity and our defences for the time ahead. We need to see a plan, therefore, to increase hospital bed capacity and for the rapid recruitment of staff. We have to get testing and tracing right. We need a plan to ensure a secure and affordable roof over our people's heads, and we need to get things right as regards people coming onto the island through our airports and ports. It would be unthinkable if in six weeks we were to meet again not having responded to these challenges. We need a strategy that brings us beyond 2020. This must be an all-island strategy.
I was taken aback by the Taoiseach's comments last night that seemed to suggest we will move in and out of lockdown for the duration of 2021. I would like him to clarify that point for us. A lot is being asked of people over the next six weeks. The Government absolutely cannot sleepwalk its way through this lockdown. Everything that needs to be done must be done to ensure we emerge stronger at every level.
I welcome the fact that the Taoiseach has addressed his devastating cuts to the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, and wage subsidy scheme. As he knows, we were very concerned that he did not do so in last week's budget. He now needs to make sure these payments do not leave anybody behind. One group that is struggling and has been left behind is mortgage holders. We argued very strongly that the mortgage payment breaks should have been extended for homeowners and businesses. That was at the end of September, just three short weeks ago, yet the Government failed to secure these protections. Now, three short weeks later, we are on the eve of a day when 200,000 will lose their jobs. Does the Taoiseach now accept that this was a very grave error in judgment on the part of his Government and, in particular, the Minister for Finance? Does he accept that this failure will have very serious implications for the credit ratings of tens of thousands of families and businesses? He could have done something about this but he failed to do so and that is shocking. He cannot blame people for believing the cosy relationship between his partner in government, Fine Gael, and the world of high finance was a key reason the Government sat on its hands and allowed this to occur.
Who will be calling in the banks? Will the Taoiseach be in contact with them directly and will he make it clear to them that they must play ball in giving easement and breathing space to mortgage holders?
Comment on this
I accept that moving to level 5 creates a lot of anxiety, difficulties and challenges for people, particularly people in employment who will now lose their jobs and enterprises that have struggled through the pandemic and since reopening have been endeavouring through hard work and putting in place safe protocols to save their enterprises and keep them going which, to a large extent, many did. To be hit with a move to level 5 is a huge blow to them. That is accepted. That is why it is a difficult decision to move to level 5. I know from talking to all of the leaders over the past two weeks that all of them were of the view that moving to level 5 would be very difficult and that is the case. However, protection of public health is paramount. The virus thrives on congregation. Where large crowds gather, the virus spreads. That is the fundamental truth. Therefore, we have to avoid large crowds gathering in any context and mixing and engaging.
We are not proceeding with an elimination or zero-Covid strategy as a country. We are also not proceeding with a herd immunity strategy. This virus kills and it also damages people for the long term in that it can have long-term health implications. The strategy to be followed is one of suppression. Deputy McDonald mentioned that I held out the prospect last evening that we were in a cycle. We are, but it is very much subject to human behaviour and all of us reducing congregation and gatherings of people in large numbers. I am not saying that. NPHET has said this to us. I am being very candid with the Oireachtas. I foresee periods of high level restrictions followed by low level restrictions and, if necessary, followed by high level restrictions again if the virus spreads during the reopening phase.
On testing capacity, we are testing far more people than we did in the first phase. The Chief Medical Officer said on "News at One" that we are testing at an unprecedented rate right now. The serial testing programmes are picking up a lot of cases, particularly in nursing homes and other locations, including in schools where up to 13,000 students and teachers have been tested and the positivity rate is around 3%. It is important that we set as a societal objective and priority that we keep our schools going.
Deputy McDonald spoke about people having a roof over their head. We are allowing construction to continue because we have a homeless crisis, a housing crisis and we need to build homes. We lost ground during the first lockdown. The construction sector here took a bigger hit than was the case in any other country across Europe. As a result of the lockdown, we are behind in terms of output and houses built. Prior to the formation of the new Government, we were behind in meeting targets for 2020 because of the lockdown. We must allow house construction to continue because of the crisis in homelessness, the lengthy social housing lists and housing need generally.
On the all-island approach, Deputy McDonald is well aware of the situation. Her party is in government in the North and she realises more than anyone in this House the difficulties and sensitivities of endeavouring to reach an agreement within the North, never mind on an all-island basis. I have been in touch with party leaders in the North. Whether it will move to a higher level is a matter for the Northern Executive. It has had challenges and difficulties in arriving at the decision it reached last week.
On the banks, the Deputy knows well that the European Banking Authority co-ordinated a Europe-wide approach to mortgage breaks and loan repayment breaks in the context of the first lockdown, which was Europe-wide. That was the context in which Government could do what it did on that occasion. The Minister for Finance will be engaging with the banks on this issue. Our entire approach has been to alleviate as much distress as possible, increasing and bringing in new tiers for the pandemic unemployment payment and the employment wage subsidy scheme and the introduction in the budget of the new Covid restrictions subsidy scheme for companies that will be closed for longer periods as a result of this pandemic.
All of our approach has been to try to help where we can to alleviate the stress and pressures on people.
Comment on this
The Taoiseach is right that the European Banking Authority did indeed oversee and supervise the regime for mortgage breaks. Under those rules, mortgage holders in Germany, Spain and Italy got payment breaks for 12 months. In this State, they got three months followed by another three months, which is six months in total and half the time allowed to mortgage holders in other jurisdictions. The Taoiseach knows as well as I do that an extension to the mortgage breaks had to be agreed and secured by 30 September. The Taoiseach knows and I know that the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform and the Tánaiste waltzed into a meeting with bankers on 28 September, had a conversation with them and there was no extension to mortgage breaks. That was three weeks ago. Now we are facing level 5 restrictions and 200,000 people will find themselves out of work. Those already out of work are reporting to us, to the Money Advice & Budgeting Service and to other authorities that the banks are not facilitating them and are not offering them alternative payment methods.
Comment on this
In fact, they are saying to them, "That is too bad. Your mortgage is not sustainable and we are offering you no alternative." That is a recipe for repossession of people's homes.
Comment on this
Having messed up disgracefully at the end of September by allowing the banks to return to business as usual, I am asking the Taoiseach, as Head of Government, to intervene now to make sure that the banks play ball and offer customers all the relevant options.
Comment on this
The Deputy continues to play the populist card. The first thing she could do is talk to her party colleagues in the North and get them to do much better in terms of mortgage breaks. They are offering only three-month payment breaks that can be extended after assessment, unlike the Irish payment break, which was for six months in total without assessment.
Comment on this
Deputy McDonald needs to get her own house in order. She continues to lecture people in here all the time about what we should be doing, but her party does not deliver where it has power and is in government. It is always somebody else's responsibility but never the Deputy's. That is always her story in terms of any issue.
The Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform do not waltz in to meet the banks. Let us have less of that nonsense. They go in there to seek the best they can, which is the right deal with the best outcome. A payment break is only a payment break and is not in itself sufficient in the medium term to deal with people in loan distress or in difficulties with their mortgage arrears. The Minister for Finance will engage with the banks on this. Within the ECB framework and the European statutory framework, we did everything we could and, in fact, we were more generous than some of the countries the Deputy referenced.
Comment on this
The Deputy is again being deliberately distortive in her assessments and assertions.
Comment on this
The other jurisdictions offered breaks that were interest-free.