Baineann mo cheist leis na hionaid máithreacha agus leanaí. Is féidir a rá d'aon ghuth nár caitheadh go maith leis na máithreacha ná leis na leanaí seo agus nár taispeánadh meas riamh orthu siúd a bhí ann. Ghlac an Taoiseach céim shuntasach breis agus mí ó shin chun fáil réidh leis an dímheas sin nuair a thug sé leithscéal ar a shon féin, ar son an Rialtais agus ar son mhuintir na tíre do na máithreacha agus do na leanaí. Cheap mise gur chéim iontach a bhí ann chun fáil réidh leis an dímheas. Faraor ghéar, táimid ag leanúint ar aghaidh ag caitheamh anuas ar na máithreacha agus ar na leanaí seo. Baineann mo cheist le taifead na fianaise atá scriosta.

Just over a month ago the Taoiseach took a very positive step by apologising and for the first time taking a step away from the terrible disrespect, to put it mildly, that was shown to the mothers and children in the various mother and baby homes. Trust is of utter importance and the Taoiseach's apology was the start of that. Since then on every level that trust has been repeatedly broken, specifically regarding the evidence that was given on the audio tapes. I raised this with the Taoiseach as have other Deputies. I would like a very clear answer from the Taoiseach today as to why that evidence was destroyed. Can it possibly be retrieved? I ask the Taoiseach to publish all the correspondence between him or the Minister and the commissioners on this matter.

Please do not tell me the commission is independent. More than anyone else, I am acutely aware of the independence of the commission. This has nothing to do with its independence. It has to do with the way it works.

Page 11 of the report states clearly that the commission destroyed the evidence and that this was always understood. That may well be but based on what most Deputies have heard, none of those who came forward understood that. Nowhere in any of the documentation that I carefully scrutinised before standing up here today is that made clear. I tried to table questions on this through the system for ordinary Dáil questions and they were ruled out of order. I appeal to the Taoiseach today beart a dhéanamh de réir a bhriathar and to take some meaningful action to give meaning to his apology. I ask him, first, to tell us what exactly the commission has said in this regard; second, to publish all of the correspondence; and third, tell us how this could possibly have happened. People came forward to give evidence, took their courage in their hands, believed in the system once again, or tried to believe in it, and are left now in a situation where there is no recording of their evidence. That was done on the basis that the commissioners knew best and were trying to protect them, with no evidence that this was communicated to them in any manner other than the commission's word.

Aontaím leis an Teachta maidir leis an méid dímheas a léiríodh do na máithreacha agus na leanaí a bhí sna tithe seo i rith na mblianta agus ó thosach. Is olc an scéal é ar fad ar fad agus níl aon dul as sin. Dá bhrí sin, caithfimid uile ár ndícheall a dhéanamh sa lá atá inniu ann ardmheas a léiriú do na máithreacha agus na leanaí, agus gach aon ní gur féidir linn a dhéanamh. Sin an fáth go bhfuil an tAire ag déileáil leis na grúpaí atá ann agus leis na daoine atá fós ag maireachtáil chun cóir agus tacaíocht a thabhairt dóibh agus, mar aon leis sin, níos mó a dhéanamh chun eolas a thabhairt dóibh maidir leis na records agus mar sin de.

Specifically, the Minister has written to the commission in respect of the audio recordings and tapes that were destroyed. The Deputy is correct that the commission says it guaranteed anonymity at the time and that, as part of that, it decided to destroy the records. The commissioners are saying that they made that clear to the survivors. However, I spoke to the Minister this morning and we noted that in the leaflets that were issued to the survivors there is no reference to the destruction of tapes at all or that tapes would be destroyed. The Minister has written to the commission asking if it is in a position to retrieve the tapes or if there is some technological way of doing so. He has not, to my knowledge, gotten a response yet.

My understanding is that the commission is engaging with the Data Protection Commission on this issue and parallel to this, the Minister is very anxious to be in a position to get the archives from the commission in order that he can accelerate access to personal information. People may request their own personal information or the rectification of records and the Minister is anxious to facilitate that as quickly as we possibly can. That is something that is part of this process as well. The Minister was eager, prior to this emerging as an issue, for the archives to move over to him in order that he could give people access to valuable personal information, which is a very basic and urgent request, and for the right to rectification under Article 16 of GDPR to be vindicated and facilitated as well. He is awaiting a response to that correspondence and I will speak to him about his capacity to publish it. That is essentially what he has written to the commission about these tapes. Meanwhile, he is working towards the legislation on information and tracing, which will be ready by the end of March or early April and the interdepartmental group will report on redress by the end of April.

The purpose of an apology is to give meaningful action. A commission has destroyed evidence and yesterday the Minister told the Joint Committee on Children, Disability, Equality and Integration that the commission has said there is no way of retrieving it. Did he not make the Taoiseach aware of that letter? Second, I am asking that all of the correspondence be published. Third, we have again an imbalance of power. We have the powerful telling the powerless what they think is in their interest and that they should be protected by getting rid of the tapes. I see no basis for getting rid of the tapes. In fact, all the tapes from a previous commission on child abuse were preserved. At this point, there is absolute urgency. As the Taoiseach knows well, the commission comes to an end at the end of the month. We want clear answers. I ask him please to stop giving me filling in pieces and specifically to tell me if the correspondence will be published and what action he will now take in view of the fact that the evidence cannot be retrieved. People went forward, took courage in their hands and gave their evidence and now we have a summarised version of that evidence by commissioners who see nothing wrong with that. The report was leaked and the Taoiseach promised an investigation into that but we did not get that either. I am conscious of time but this is a really serious issue. I ask the Taoiseach please to give straight answers and to stop telling me about anything else. This is one specific issue. How did this happen? On what basis did it happen? Did the commissioners look at precedents from previous commissions where the evidence was preserved? I ask him please to publish the correspondence.

I do not know how it happened.

The Taoiseach should know.

I should not, actually.

He should, by now.

I am not a member of the commission. The commission decided to do this and I do not know why it did so. It is making assertions that it did this on the basis that it guaranteed anonymity to those who came forward. No member of Government was involved obviously in the commission's work, as the Deputy knows. That is important, because the impression is being given that the Government could do something now about how the commission operated; it cannot. What the Minister has done is written to the commission. The commission is saying it is irretrievable but the Minister is still pursuing it from a technological perspective to see if it can be retrieved in some form.

The decision was taken by the commission in advance of the publication and so on. I will be very clear. The Minister has written. Unfortunately, there are limitations to what the Government can do here and the Deputy knows that. The Government is very focused on what it has committed to doing as regards access to information, information and tracing legislation, reporting on the redress situation by the end of April and other matters. The Minister is also engaging with the Attorney General right now to see what further measures can be taken and to see if he can indeed effect the retrieval of these tapes or a reconsideration of this matter by the commission.