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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Covid restrictions and young people

Summary

Deputy Kelly says the Government’s handling of the latest Covid restrictions was chaotic and asks about the impact on young people. The Tánaiste explains the modelling and says consideration will be given to testing options for the digital Covid certificate, while warning that testing is not as safe as vaccination.

On the decision made by Government this week in regard to the Covid restrictions and where we are going, the manner in which it happened was embarrassing. I know what it is like to be in government. I have been on both sides of the fence in this House. I know issues arise, but on behalf of the Irish people what happened was embarrassing. It was chaos and it was unacceptable. Ministers at Cabinet either did not understand what was in front of them or they were misled. It was one or the other. They are saying quite forcefully that they did not know that the modelling put in front of them by NPHET did not include the new national immunisation advisory committee, NIAC, advice in regard to two vaccine types. That is a fact. I will not have an argy-bargy on it because I do not have time, but it is embarrassing. It should not happen. We need a level of competency from the Government that will deliver for the people.

The decision was made based on data from 23 June. It did not include the following figures. We know about Pfizer and Moderna and how many vaccines are due over the next quarter. In the case of Pfizer, it is 2.3 million and for Modern, it is 850,000. The modelling did not include the expected approximately 900,000 single dose Janssen vaccines and approximately 2 million AstraZeneca vaccines which can inoculate 1 million people. Therefore, an additional 1.9 million people could be inoculated. As we know, there have been changes in regard to the AstraZeneca as regards the four weeks. We all know we are in a race of variant versus vaccines. The Government often asks Members of the Opposition what they would do. For a change, I will offer what I would do.

First, from Monday next, I would roll out the Janssen vaccine to all 18 to 29 year olds who will take it. There would be queues out the door for it. A pharmacist we both know has had 60 Janssen vaccines for two weeks. Only ten of those 60 vaccines have been administered. I would ask NIAC to endorse the study about mRNA vaccines providing five times more protection for the over 60s who have been already administered the AstraZeneca vaccine and who are most vulnerable. I would gather two weeks data from the UK and ensure that we have explored all avenues in relation to the reopening of the hospitality industry so that they can protect people - rushing out ventilation systems. Finally, I would use the next two weeks to ensure that the travel certificate launched today, which Ireland is the only country in Europe not to have proceeded with yet, is used in some way or mirrored in relation to the hospitality industry. In doing all of that, the Government should remodel all of the data so that we get a true picture of where we are going for the Irish people.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Tánaiste Fine Gael

The modelling presented by NPHET to the Cabinet on Tuesday did not take account of the changes that NIAC has now permitted in relation to vaccines, nor could it have. We still do not know for sure what the changes that NIAC is now permitting will do in terms of the vaccination programme. We knew that the vaccination programme would slow down in July because we could not use the AstraZeneca and Janssen vaccines on young people. We now know that we can do that, but we do not yet know how much it will allow us to speed up the vaccination programme in July, or when. That work is being done today. There are still some uncertainties. There is uncertainty around the supply of AstraZeneca and uncertainty, for example, as to what uptake will be if we change to a different model such as a walk-in type model. All of those things have to be worked out. It is only when they are worked out that the data can be input into the modelling. The Deputy will understand why that is.

In terms of the ideas put forward by the Deputy, the Government is considering a proposal regarding use of the Janssen vaccine. We do have some surplus stocks. We may get more, but we do not know that for sure. We are certainly considering the possibility of opening that up to be people under 50, who could go to the 750 community pharmacists providing this service and avail of that vaccine. What the Deputy said was very prescient. He said that if we announce this, there will be queues outside the pharmacies. There might be, but will there be the stocks? That is the type of work the HSE has to do: talk with pharmacists, ask them whether they can do this, what level of stock they would need, and whether we have them. In fairness, this decision from NIAC was only made on Monday. Today, is only Thursday. In fairness, to the HSE it will take a couple of days to operationalise this and to work out what the implications are. I want to extend my thanks and respect to the HSE as there have been so many changes to the vaccine programme. Where we are is, perhaps, where we should have been at the start. All of the vaccines work and they can be used on all age groups. Two doses of AstraZeneca is as good as two doses of Pfizer as makes no difference. In all case there are size effects and in all cases the benefits outweigh the risks. We are now in that place. Perhaps, if we had been there from the start we would have got more done more quickly.

On the digital Covid cert, again, what the Deputy suggested is exactly what we are doing. We are working out whether we can use the digital Covid cert to apply it domestically. We do expect that within the next three weeks hundreds of thousands of people will receive their digital Covid cert, electronically or by post. We are working out now whether we can use that domestically. It was only ever intended for international travel. Border check control staff checking these passes is a very different thing to staff in the local pub or restaurant doing it. That needs to be worked out.

In terms of remodelling the data, that is exactly what we are going to do. We will remodel the models. That will be done in advance of 19 July as I said yesterday on "Morning Ireland" and it will take into account two things: the experience from Britain, Scotland and England in particular, and how bad the Delta variant really is. We will have a better idea in two or three weeks and we will certainly know what changes to the vaccination programme will mean. We can then make decisions again.

Comment on this

I thank the Tánaiste for being so frank with me.

I am delighted the Tánaiste is taking on board basically everything I have said. I appreciate that but I would ask him to do one more thing. It relates to young people. The Tánaiste will know that there was an Economic and Social Research Institution, ESRI, report showing that the impact of this on young people over the last couple of years has been disproportionate. Economically, they are poorer than any younger generation for decades. Whatever we proceed with, we are all in this together. We cannot leave one group behind. We cannot say that the unvaccinated have to serve the vaccinated. Will the Tánaiste please give a commitment in that regard? I believe in the use of antigen testing. I was the first person to raise the matter here last October. Regardless of the mix of measures taken, which may potentially involve testing, I ask that the Tánaiste ensures that whatever certificate is to be used includes everybody, no matter their age, so that we can continue bringing everyone along together rather than discriminating against young people. Will the Tánaiste give us that commitment this morning?

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Tánaiste Fine Gael

The pandemic is unfair, as are viruses and, sometimes, science. Older people have borne the brunt of the pandemic by quite a distance with regard to illness, hospitalisation and deaths. Younger people have borne the brunt economically with regard to the impact on their incomes and on their freedoms. At the start of this pandemic, we told older people that they were the most vulnerable and asked them to please cocoon, to stay inside and not to go out. They did that. It was unfair but it was the right thing to do. We are now telling people who are not vaccinated, who are mostly, although not only, younger people, that they are now the most vulnerable and we are asking them to avoid socialising and congregating indoors for the next couple of weeks until we get them vaccinated. That is what we are saying. We are doing it for a good reason, backed by public health advice and science.

Comment on this

We are not at all.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Tánaiste Fine Gael

With regard to the digital Covid certificate, we will give consideration to the testing option for the exact reasons the Deputy has mentioned. However, in giving that consideration, we also need to be honest with people. Nobody will ever say that any test, whether a PCR test or an antigen test, is as good as vaccination or immunity from exposure. We could do that in order to address the unfairness and inequality issues the Deputy has raised but it would make things less safe. We need to be honest about that.

Comment on this