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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Nightclub regulations and public health

Summary

Deputy Kelly questioned the Government's announcement on nightclubs as unworkable and lacking consultation, then pressed for stronger certification and ventilation measures. The Taoiseach defended the public health approach, cited hospital and ICU numbers, and said the Minister for Health had written to NIAC regarding healthcare workers.

I ask this in jest, of course, because we are not of the same generation, but when was the last time the Taoiseach or any of his colleagues was in a night club?

Comment on this

It depends on how the Deputy defines "night club".

Comment on this

Yes. We know from yesterday that the Government's definition is unknown. After yesterday, there has been a lack of consistency, as I am sure the Taoiseach is aware. Many people have been in touch with me, my colleague, Deputy Sherlock, and all of us about what was announced. It is unworkable and incomprehensible. The Government should have consulted in advance. The cart was put before the horse. A number of weeks ago, we were one of the few parties in opposition that supported the extension of the regulations, so we understand where the increasing case numbers left the Government. However, this industry has been on its knees. We need consistency in the approach. The Covid certificate has to be enforced properly. We need industry buy-in in that regard. We also need to ensure that there are proper regulations and guidance around ventilation, something that always seems to be forgotten.

Speaking as someone who worked for Fáilte Ireland for nearly a decade, what is being put to it and others in terms of how they are meant to create rules around unnatural regulations will simply not work. A pub that changes into a night club cannot change its rules in a matter of minutes. People at live entertainment can stand up and dance, but if they are in a night club, they can only dance. This is all unnatural. We need to get back to first basics - personal responsibility, the 100% imposition of certificates, ventilation, etc. - but asking Fáilte Ireland and others to do this will not work. It is not natural and these rules are ridiculous. I hope the Government will bear that in mind.

It is a year since I first raised in the House the matter of antigen testing. We have lost a year, but now antigen testing is deemed important. Before we ever went to the convention centre, I stood up in this Chamber and asked about antigen tests because I used them to ensure protection when visiting my elderly parents. A year later, they are only now being considered. Will the Government use antigen testing in schools? The INTO has asked for this and I support it. Will the Government ensure that serial testing in nursing homes begins again for a period? It is a necessary and responsible thing to do.

We know what the healthcare sector, including hospitals, is facing into. Like the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, I am surprised that the national immunisation advisory committee, NIAC, and the Government have not made the decision to give booster vaccines to healthcare workers. Will the Taoiseach please ask NIAC to revert to the Government with recommendations in that regard within a number of days?

Comment on this

First of all, Deputy, I have to state that there are 464 people in hospital this morning. There are 74 in intensive care. My central objective and that of the Government is to protect lives and protect people's health. That has to be central to our consideration above and beyond anything. This is not giving out to anybody or criticising anybody, but it has to be central and it has to inform our approach.

Since the spring time, we have comprehensively, gradually and cautiously reopened society, with significant benefits. Thousands of people are back at work, less than 100,000 compared to 400,000 are now on the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, consumer spending is surging and the economy is enjoying growth periods because of that cautious reopening. What is critical is that, as we reopen further in the context of a deteriorating situation in relation to the prevalence of the disease and its penetration into hospitals, we do so in a cautious way. That is the central message of yesterday. As I said yesterday, there will be sectoral guidance issued to different sectors, but what is extremely important is that it is ring-fenced for live entertainment and it does not spread right across the hospitality sector. That is very important, because otherwise that would have inherent dangers in terms of the spread of the disease. This is not simple and there are challenges, but we will work and we will get them resolved.

I recall the rows in the convention centre when we brought in the digital Covid certificate. One would have imagined at the time that we had abandoned everything - civil liberties and the whole lot of it - with parties attacking us left, right and centre for bringing in the digital Covid certificate, and now it is accepted as a key protective measure to enable not just the reopening of hospitality, but keeping it reopened.

Regarding the decisions yesterday, it was last Wednesday that the Government was alerted to the deteriorating situation. There was a meeting with senior officials and NPHET wanted a number of days more to see the pattern in terms of case numbers and so forth. Hence, there was a meeting of NPHET on Monday and the Government meeting on Tuesday. Government leaders considered NPHET's advice late Monday evening. I accept that the night-time economy sector has not got great notice in relation to this, but that is because of how things have evolved.

The Deputy used a good phrase: "It is not natural". Covid is not natural, and that is the problem. Covid is not natural, there are many twists and turns with it and it can upset the best-laid plans. We thought two weeks ago that we would be opening without restrictions. That has changed. What we now must do is try to protect things.

In respect of antigen testing, to be fair to the Deputy, he was consistent in raising that issue. He knows, as we all do, that there have been different perspectives on it among public health experts and so on, but we are now ruling on it. The Deputy referred to NIAC and the Government. Let us be clear - the clinical advice is there, unless the Deputy is suggesting that we now override the national immunisation advisory committee.

Comment on this

We have asked it. The Minister for Health has written to NIAC in respect of healthcare workers because we do accept the Deputy's points.

Comment on this
Catherine Connolly An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Taoiseach, but we are over time.

Comment on this

I respect that the Government got this recommendation at the last minute, but it did not have to make the decision. It could have waited, consulted and then come forward. The regulations that will have to be introduced must place a greater emphasis on certification - almost a reboot, as others have said - but also concentrate on ventilation.

While I respect the fact that the situation has changed in the past week, I find it difficult to explain to the public how we got to this point. Is it because of vaccines not working as effectively as we thought, is it because many children under 16 years of age and-or 10% of adults are not vaccinated, or is it a combination of all three? The public needs this question answered. I want it answered. The Taoiseach needs to tell the public. He might tell the House where the Government is going in this respect.

The Taoiseach did not answer my question on booster vaccines for healthcare workers. Have we a timeline for when NIAC will revert on this matter? Can the Government set a timeline? Those workers all deserve to be looked after, given the length of time they have been vaccinated and the fact that we do not know its efficacy.

Comment on this

I think the Deputy has raised a fair point in terms of ventilation. Guidance has issued in respect of ventilation in our schools, which resulted in CO2 monitors being provided to schools across the length and breadth of the country.

Close to 90% of over-12s in the population have been vaccinated. The vaccines are very effective against severe illness, hospitalisation, death and admission to intensive care. Two thirds of people in intensive are unvaccinated. There is a waning effect. We know that. The manufacturers have said that, but also Israel and other authorities are essentially saying that, after six months, there is a waning effect. Now, there is a lot of academic work and research ongoing in respect of that, looking at the degree of antibodies required to protect against various levels of infection or illness, but suffice it to say that the Deputy has raised a very important point that we have to keep this under analysis.

The public health experts believe our close proximity to the UK, the high incidence of the disease as we were vaccinating, the Delta variant in particular, which is very transmissible, and the seasonality of our climate and resulting behaviours in terms of indoor activity could be factors in explaining why a country with high vaccination has very high incidence of the disease.

Comment on this