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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Schools, boosters and antigen testing

Summary

Deputy Alan Kelly challenged the Taoiseach over what he said was misleading information about schools, household contacts and booster priorities. The exchange escalated into a row over who said what, then broadened to whether antigen tests should be universal and whether teachers and school staff should be prioritised, with the Taoiseach insisting NIAC advice must guide booster rollout.

I have been in this House a few years and have never accused anyone of telling porkies, let alone the Taoiseach. I asked him about schools yesterday because I am genuinely concerned about them. My colleague, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, has been articulating those concerns for some time. When I spoke to the Taoiseach after Taoiseach's Questions, I said that schools will be additionally affected by the new five-day rule. I have young kids and my wife is a teacher. The Taoiseach told me that teachers are exempt. He knows that.

I know the Taoiseach is annoyed because he messed up, but this was not a total misconstruction. He even denied we had a conversation in the Chamber, which made him look rather silly, considering there is a video of it. I will not dwell on it because there are more serious things to discuss but if he wants to call me a liar during his reply, he can. The Taoiseach messed up and had to reverse immediately, which I am glad he did. Teachers, special needs assistants, SNAs, and early years workers cannot be treated differently. The public do not care about such a schoolboy row.

My party, as the Taoiseach knows, is the only Opposition party that has supported the two most recent extensions of public health measures. We will support and work with the Government. However, there is now widespread confusion among the public about what actions they should take. I say this to be constructive. We are sleepwalking into another lockdown. Financial supports need to be put in place for businesses and workers. People out there now are being told to get another job. How is that a way to treat workers?

I spoke this morning to Ms Trina Golden, the exhausted principal of Owenabue Educate Together primary school. She believes schools are going to close all over the country. She had to tell parents not to send their kids to school yesterday. That is in the Taoiseach's constituency. He should ring her and talk to her.

The Minister for Education is absent without leave. The Taoiseach is so embarrassed by the Minister for Health that they have not been seen at a press conference together for more than a year. The Minister for Education said this morning that antigen testing would be operational in schools by the end of the week. Will the Taoiseach confirm that is going to happen? It is a year since I raised the issue of antigen tests. I have been taking them for a year because I have elderly parents. They are not a panacea but they help. Will a subsidy be put in place for antigen tests? Will the Taoiseach consider giving them away for free until 1 January? I would do that, and then subsidise them, so people can get used to them. Will the Taoiseach provide a public information campaign on antigen tests? What additional measures will be provided for schools? As the Labour Party has suggested because of the situation we are in, will the Government provide boosters for schoolteachers, SNAs and early years staff? Is the Taoiseach going to consider taking over private hospitals again? I have never seen the HSE as worried as it is now. Will the Taoiseach commit to putting back in place the PUP and supports for businesses that are now closing because of decisions the Government has had to make?

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I have been in the House longer than the Deputy.

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That is right.

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You learn something every day. I learned something about the Deputy yesterday-----

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And I about the Taoiseach.

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-----that I will not forget.

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Is that a threat?

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What I learned will govern our relationship from here onwards in terms of the nature of the engagements we will have.

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That is good.

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I have never before seen the likes of what transpired. As I was engaged here, the Deputy came along over here. I will refer him to what he asked me on the record of the House immediately before our exchange. The Deputy asked, "Given the complication RSV causes, will the Government consider prioritising front-line workers such as gardaí, retail workers, transport workers and, most of all, teachers, SNAs, and early years workers for boosters, primarily so that the schools system does not fall over?". He asked me nothing at all about the household contacts or the decision the Government took and publicised yesterday.

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I asked the Taoiseach about those things over there.

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I just want to put that on the record. The Deputy came over to me for a 30-second or 40-second engagement. He scampered off and told his education spokesperson who tweeted something that was then reported as fact. It is extraordinary.

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The Taoiseach told me that. If we wants to call me a liar, call me a liar.

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I am putting it straight. I have learned some things about the Deputy.

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What is the difference between a misconstruction and a lie? Was it a misconstruction? You are not denying you said those words.

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I am. I never said those words.

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Was it a misconstruction? You are calling me a liar so.

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I never said what the Deputy construed I said. I rang you afterwards to make it very clear to you how I regarded the interchange. You cannot do things like that.

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You roared and shouted down the phone. That is what you did.

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If I may say, the issue is that we have 4,500 cases a day. We have expanded the use of antigen testing. The Deputy knows that public health advice has not been very enthusiastic about the wider deployment of antigen testing. Progress has been made. Antigen testing is being used in meat processing plants, nursing homes and third level education and for close contacts. Those tests are being sent out to people. In many ways, we can learn from the UK experience where the wider deployment of antigen testing did not all go to plan. The deployment of antigen testing will be expanded. I take the Deputy's point about a public information campaign and a wider communication campaign. That is what the public health advice was saying as recently as Monday evening. Our public health teams have said, because of the research they have been doing, that there is a need to communicate with the public extensively on the best way to use antigen testing. However, even the expert advisory group is saying it is not a silver bullet. We have dramatically expanded PCR testing. We have done 196,000 PCR tests in the past seven days and tribute should be paid to the HSE and its teams in that regard. People here were lambasting the HSE about PCR testing. Our capacity for PCR testing is now one of the strongest in Europe. That will be supplemented by antigen testing, which will be operational in schools. However, it is not a silver bullet by any means.

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The Taoiseach also said that the banks were not bailed out. His roaring down the phone and threats in here do no bother me. I will let the public decide who they believe. I think we already know.

The Taoiseach does not seem to be getting that this is Groundhog Day for this country. People around the country are very worried. The Taoiseach is consistent in his inconsistency. Will the Taoiseach consider giving antigen tests to everyone until 1 January? That is a reasonable request. Will the Taoiseach please put it out there and consider it? Will he give boosters to school teachers, SNAs and early years staff? Schools are going to fall over. It is happening already in the Taoiseach's constituency. Is the Taoiseach going to do something with the private hospitals? The situation is absolutely untenable. A record number of people are on trolleys in University Hospital Limerick, my closest hospital. Those numbers have never before been seen in the history of the State.

We are not even at the crux or height of it yet. On these three matters, I am asking the Taoiseach, on behalf of the public, to help. I am making the suggestions as someone who supported public health advice and the Government in its measures. Will the Taoiseach consider the three suggestions, please?

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The Deputy is being populist-----

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-----in saying the boosters should be given to everybody.

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The teachers.

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Keep the schools open.

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Keep your voice down and calm it down. Cool it.

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No, you cool it.

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The bottom line is this: NIAC has advised as to the cohort that should get the booster. Why? Who is in the ICU departments at the moment? Those in the ICU departments are the immunocompromised, the unvaccinated, people with underlying conditions and those in older age cohorts.

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We can do both.

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Who are most at risk? They include those in older age cohorts, the immunocompromised-----

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Does the Taoiseach want the schools closed?

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-----and people with underlying conditions. The advice is that they need the booster before anybody else. We have been through this before. I have heard it suggested in this House that the booster should be given to this group, that group or the next group. It is all popular stuff; it courts the group and it courts the sector but-----

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The Taoiseach knows the reason. When the schools close, what is he going to do?

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-----the most effective thing we can do is proceed in accordance with the medical advice, public health advice and advice of those who advise on immunisation, which is to give the booster to those who need it most first. I thought we were all in agreement on that.

On private hospital capacity, 1,100 to 1,200 beds are already being used on a continuing basis by the HSE in this respect. That figure will grow. That will go up to 2,800 bed days per week. That is where we are right now. It will expand significantly-----

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At this point, it would be cheaper to buy them.

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-----under agreements that have already been arrived at and planned for in respect of growing numbers of cases and pressures on the health system.

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