We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

School mask legal basis

Summary

Deputy Kelly raised confusion over the Omicron response, particularly the communications on primary-school masks and whether principals and boards have legal protection. The Taoiseach said the measure is a public-health response to rising Covid levels among children and insisted principals and management will be protected, but he did not give a specific legal answer.

I understand the Omicron variant is in Ireland. The Taoiseach might take the opportunity in his reply to confirm what he knows about this. It is important that the House is updated immediately on this. Obviously, it is a very serious, but not surprising, issue for us.

I wish to raise the matter of the two letters issued by the Department of Education and the Chief Medical Officer, CMO, on school masks in primary schools, because there is utter confusion in relation to how this was done. The communication process around it was nothing short of diabolical. We support public health advice. I have a son who is ten, a daughter who is 11 and a wife who is a primary school teacher. This measure protects teachers and children. I appreciate and support that. However, for 20 months the Taoiseach has been saying that schools are safe. It took the Government five days to make a decision on these new mask rules, but it gave schools 16 hours' notice. Last night's communications arrived after 6 o'clock when principals had finished. What sort of way is that to communicate with the principals of Ireland in primary schools and boards of management, who have gone through so much over the last year and three quarters in dealing with this virus and keeping the education system going? Surely, there should have been a communications process whereby principals and unions were engaged with, but also children were engaged with. There is a huge difference from a developmental point of view between a nine-year-old and a 15-year-old. This cannot just happen overnight and that is what is being asked. I understand, despite questions from my colleague, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, the Minister of Education has now clarified that there will be a couple of days' grace. Ultimately, this measure is mandatory, and that is fine, but the communications process around it has been frankly diabolical.

Principals were at school gates this morning wondering what they were meant to do. It will be the same tomorrow. There are communication issues regarding the volume of kids who come from non-national backgrounds, for instance. One cannot just push a light switch and think that this will operate perfectly. It will not. There are issues with GPs. Their time cannot be taken up giving out exemptions for masks to kids in school. The GPs are wrecked. There are issues about where they will get all the masks if they have to give more masks to kids during school because I suspect they will need multiple masks during school. Also, there are issues with mixed classes.

The real and most important issue I want to ask the Taoiseach about is what the legal basis for this is and has he guaranteed that principals are legally protected? If they refuse entry to a kid into school, are they legally protected by this State? I note the pdf sent out had no signature on it and was not on headed paper. I want to know if this is non-statutory guidance or if it has a legislative basis. If someone rocks up to the High Court to challenge this, will the Government defend the principal, who will be the person taken to court? This is a critical question. The principals of Ireland are genuinely concerned about this. I am not making this up. They have been on to me and Deputy Ó Ríordáin and are really concerned. What happens if someone challenges them on this? Are they legally protected?

Comment on this

I accept what the Deputy has said in that this is a public health measure which he welcomes and accepts. He also said that he accepts it is a requirement and that it is fine. I accept that in good faith. It is a public health measure. The Chief Medical Officer and deputy Chief Medical Officer have expressed to the Government their deep concern about the very rapid increase in the incidence of Covid in five-year-olds to 11-year-olds and, critically, the parents of those children as well. As part of the general measures to reduce community transmission and the volume of incidences in the community, this is now a measure they recommend. It is also to protect education and our schools.

Of course, the idea of children wearing masks is not new. The Deputy is correct in saying there are developmental differences between nine-year-olds and 13-year-olds, 14-year-olds and 15-year-olds. Nonetheless, mask wearing has been a requirement for over 13-year-olds and has not generated any huge issues. There may have been a legal case or two taken that did not hold up. I do not have the details of that to hand, but I can check that and come back to the Deputy in respect of what happened at post-primary level. Suffice to say that mask wearing has been a requirement at post-primary level for quite some time and has operated on the ground. I would also add that there are clear directions in terms of mixed classes as to what is to happen. In terms of the guidelines, as ever in education, school management know and will engage with their community and will be attentive to the needs of students and individual students. Obviously, for special needs children, there will not be a requirement if it is not suitable nor should there be. The wearing of masks could be difficult and challenging for children with special needs and for children that may have issues with masks. There has to a be common sense, practical approach to this and I think in the main, there will be.

Overall, we have to look at this as a collective. There has to be a societal response. That is how we have got through this pandemic up to now. Where there are high incidence rates in the community, we have to take a community-wide approach to reduce the level of incidence and, for example, that is the case with vaccinations. We now have 93.5% of those over 18 vaccinated. Yet, one of the problems when one looks at what is happening in hospitals, 48% of Covid hospitalisations are unvaccinated; 50% in ICU are unvaccinated; and 2% are partially vaccinated. One can see the huge disparity. The point I am making is that the community-based response is crucial and it also applies to mask wearing. It is challenging and I appreciate that. It is not something I am entirely 100% comfortable with as a person, a parent and as a former teacher. I am very much alive to the different situations that can apply in different schools, localities, backgrounds and so on. We have to be sensitive to all that.

Comment on this

Not being comfortable with it is one thing; not being legal is another. I am concerned about this. There is a big difference between primary and secondary schools. Many people have followed the guidance but will have an objection to this. I do not, but some do. I want to know that principals are protected. We have trawled to see what the legal basis is to cover principals and boards of management and we cannot find any. The announcement was on non-headed note paper. There was no signature on the PDF that was sent out. What is the legal basis that protects principals and boards of management?

If somebody is not allowed into school, how will it affect his or her attendance record? There is a legal basis in law regarding kids having to go to school. What happens in this instance? Kids have a constitutional, legal right to an education. I ask the Taoiseach once more: are principals and boards of management legally protected? What is the legal basis under which this measure operates? We as a Legislature need to know that.

Comment on this

Principals and teachers administrating public health policy in the middle of a global pandemic will be protected.

I will just make the point that this is a policy position in the middle of a global pandemic. School principals and management will be protected in applying public health policy. I pay tribute to principals and teachers across the length and breadth of the country who collectively agree, as do all of us in this House, that we want children in schools because-----

Comment on this

What is the legal basis?

Comment on this

Will the Deputy hear me out please? Developmentally, children being in school trumps everything. The development needs of children regress or are undermined if they are out of school for any prolonged period. That is the context here. To protect that central objective, the public health advice recommends the wearing of masks. The Chief Medical Officer and the deputy chief medical officer are of the view that this will help in reducing overall transmission and will protect schools and the education system.

Comment on this

What is the legal framework for this?

Comment on this

The legal framework is obviously that, from a public health perspective, our fundamental obligation is to protect the public from this virus.

Comment on this

Are the principals protected? The Taoiseach is not answering that question.

Comment on this

I am not going to arbitrate on what would transpire should people take challenges and so on.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach is not answering the question. He cannot answer it because there is no answer.

Comment on this

I dispute that. The Deputy is not a constitutional lawyer.

Comment on this

No, but I can still get advice.

Comment on this

I accept the point and I can see-----

Comment on this

I can get advice before issuing a circular.

Comment on this

I can see the conflicting arguments that will ultimately transpire. I accept the Deputy's bona fides in saying that this is the right thing to do. I agree with that.

Comment on this

Yes, but there must be a legal basis for it. The Taoiseach did not come in here with legislation to provide for this. There needs to be a basis for regulations. Will the Taoiseach tell the principals who are going to be at the gates of schools what he has told me?

Comment on this