We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Ukraine resistance and Russian influence

Summary

Deputy Mick Barry discussed the Ukrainian resistance, the Russian anti-war movement, and the role of people power in ending war. He then raised western and Irish links to Putin, including Russian money in the IFSC, and the Tánaiste said too many had turned a blind eye to Putin for too long.

Ukraine's agony continues. Some 1 million refugees have left the country and thousands of civilians have been killed. Cities, homes and healthcare facilities have been bombed to smithereens. Seven days after the Russian tanks began to roll across the border, Ukraine remains unconquered and the capital is holding out. Amid the horror of Putin's war two key positives shine out, namely, the resistance of the Ukrainian people and the Russian anti-war movement. Again and again, history has shown that people power holds the key to ending war and dictatorship. The Ceausescus were overthrown not by NATO but by a mass uprising of the Romanian people. The other Stalinist dictatorships were not ended by tanks but by the masses. The beginning of the end of the First World War were the strikes and protests on the streets of Russia that overthrew the tsar and put capitalism into the dock.

Next week, the Irish State will send representatives to Versailles for an informal European Council hosted by President Macron. The question of building a European military machine is expected to dominate proceedings. President Macron's views are well known on this. He has said that we will not protect Europeans if we do not decide to have a true European army. I suspect he will make this point more forcefully next week. This week, the Tánaiste told RTÉ news he thinks Ireland needs to go deeper on the question of European military co-operation. He said it needs to increase military spending and expressed a wish to open up a debate on such issues.

The socialist left looks forward to engaging with the Tánaiste and others in this debate. In that context, I will make a number of points in the time remaining to me. My first overarching point is that the history of Europe shows that dividing the continent into armed camps does not lead to peace. If the Tánaiste goes to Versailles next week, he should take a trip out to the green fields of France and he will see what I mean. Ireland won her independence by way of a struggle against a great imperial power in the 20th century. Ireland should not now align with the ruling classes of France, Germany and elsewhere that are seeking to make Europe a military power in the 21st century.

We oppose any major increase in Ireland's military spending. One of the three options in the recent Defence Forces report was to increase the military spend from €1 billion a year to €3 billion. We think that the vast bulk of that money should be spent on housing, health, childcare and the like and that the majority of people in this country would agree with us on that. We are in favour of spending to end the scourge of low pay in our Defence Forces.

In conclusion, I again call on all people, especially young people, to come out onto the streets to say "No" to war and to show solidarity with and encourage the two key forces that hold the key to progress here, the brave anti-war protestors on the streets of Russia and, crucially, the heroic ordinary people of Ukraine in their resistance.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Tánaiste Fine Gael

I echo and agree with the Deputy's remarks on at least two accounts. The first is that we all admire the bravery of the Ukrainian Government and the Ukrainian people who are resisting this attack and this attempt to take over and occupy their country. Even with regard to a city like Kharkiv, which is near the Russian border, in which most people are Russian speakers and in which there is, in many ways, a dual identity, Putin has made a big mistake. If anything, he has cemented and strengthened the Ukrainian national identity. Russian speakers and people who perhaps feel a little Russian and a little Ukrainian are feeling more Ukrainian today and are pushing back in that city against the Russian invasion. To me, that says that Ukrainians and Russians alike want to live in a democracy and are willing to fight for that, as they are now doing. I have immense admiration for those Russians who are attending protests in St. Petersburg, Moscow and other cities to say that this is not being done in their name. It is a very brave person who protests on Nevsky Prospect in St. Petersburg or in Red Square. We need to recognise that and offer them our solidarity and support.

One thing we need to do, which we have not done enough of in recent years, is to start defending our system a bit more. Our system is the system of the west. It is based on liberal democracy, the rule of law, the social market economy and multilateralism in international affairs. It is not a perfect system. I know that. We have lots of problems but nobody is trying to climb over walls or climbing into dinghies to get into China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran or any of those places. We need to recognise the fact that we are very fortunate to live in a social market economy and a liberal democracy. We are fortunate to be part of organisations like the European Union and the United Nations. If anything, this attack on Ukraine should be a wake-up call for all of us to be willing to defend our system because a system worth building is worth defending. If the European Union was worth building, it is worth defending. If our independence was worth securing, it is also worth defending.

Like Deputy Barry, I do not agree that we should increase defence spending up to €3 billion. That would be too much. There are other priorities and other demands. However, I do think we need to increase defence spending. We need to pay our military personnel more. We need better equipment. We need to be able to guard our own seas. We need radar over our own airspace. The assumption that we have made for 70 years is that nobody would attack us because we are a country that is neutral militarily. Ukraine was neutral militarily. It was not part of any military alliance. It was attacked because it was politically part of the west, or at least wanted to be. We make the assumption that, even if we are attacked, the British and the Americans will come and save us anyway. I am not sure that is the kind of assumption a sovereign country like ours should make.

Comment on this

This debate is under way and will continue over the coming weeks and months. We look forward to participating fully in that debate. Part of the debate has to be the question of the links European governments had with the Putin regime and its supporters, including the blind eye that was turned in this country. Some €118 billion worth of wealth was sloshing through the IFSC from Russian entities between 2005 and 2017, dirty money laundered by oligarchs etc. Why was a blind eye turned to this within a 15-minute walk of Leinster House? Did the Government and Government Ministers really think this was just pensioner savings or communion money that was being kept in the International Financial Services Centre? We would argue that, in reality, the only consistent opponent of Putin and Russian gangster oligarch capitalism down through the years has been the socialist left. This is part of the debate. We look forward to engaging in that debate. We are confident that our ideas will echo strongly among ordinary Irish people.

Comment on this
Leo Varadkar The Tánaiste Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy. Far too many people in the west, including many western European governments, turned a blind eye to President Putin for too long. We saw that after the Crimea crisis. That sent a message to him that the west was weak and I would say he started making his plans around about then to take the rest of Ukraine. However, it is not just about governments or government ministers. Anyone who has expressed pro-Putin sentiments or who has been an apologist for Putin now has questions to answer. There are a lot of them in Ireland, some in this House, and many outside of this House. They should now be held to account for statements they made in the past that were soft on the Russian regime and for being apologists for Putin in any way. Quite a number of them would consider themselves to be part of the socialist left. I do not mean Deputy Barry but I can identify quite a number of people who would consider themselves to be socialists or part of the socialist left who have appeared on Russia Today, who have been apologists for Putin and who have consistently made statements that are supportive of that regime and that man. They need to be held to account now.

Comment on this