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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

State pension age and retirement choice

Summary

Deputy McDonald accused the Government of stealthily raising the pension age to 70 through deferral incentives. The Taoiseach insisted the Government decision keeps the pension age at 66, allows retirement at 66, and is also exploring options for people in physically demanding work.

We will take Leaders' Questions under Standing Order 36. I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald.

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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCeann Comhairle. Workers across the country will be deeply alarmed and angered by the Government's latest plan for the State pension. Let us call this what it is: a Trojan horse designed by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael to move the pension age to 70 by stealth. The cat is out of the bag. The Government wants people to work until the age of 70. I suppose this will not come as a surprise to anybody because, after all, these are the parties that were hell-bent on raising the pension age to 67 and then to 68 until the weight of enormous public pressure made them climb down. However, instead of doing the right thing and bringing forward a progressive and fair policy, the Government is now presenting a ploy to force people into working until they are 70 years old with the promise of then having a decent standard of living. "Retire at 70 for an extra €60 in ... pension" is how one newspaper summarised it. This, however, is a scam. The pension deferral the Government is proposing means, in reality, that thousands of euro in pension payments will be taken from workers, payments they would now have as of right. We must be clear on this point.

It is not only those approaching pension age who are angered by this plan, but also young workers looking on now and wondering if they will ever get the chance to retire at all. Workers should have the right to retire at 65 with their pension, if that is what they want to do. The Government's proposal completely ignores the everyday reality of those who do hard physical jobs that take a toll on the body. Many of these workers started working at the age of 16 or 17, and some did so at a younger age. I am talking about factory workers, carers, retail workers, those on their feet all day in the service industries, nurses and many, many more. Hundreds and thousands of workers will be left out in the cold under this plan. They are not incapacitated and do not need an invalidity payment; they simply do not have anything left in the tank to keep working beyond the age of 65. They have put in their shift, they have done their bit and they are exhausted. Their right to retire at the age of 65 on a fair pension is not only a matter of public policy, but also a matter of principle and basic decency. One is either for it or against it. Clearly, the Taoiseach's Government is not only against it, but it will move heaven and earth to ensure it does not happen.

Sinn Féin is for the right to retire at 65 with a decent pension. This is what we would deliver in government. By the way, if we were delivering the budget next week, we would back up this commitment with an increase in the State pension of €15. Tá plean ag an Taoiseach chun aois an phinsin a bhogadh go dtí 70 bliain d'aois. Tá daoine ag iarraidh go mbeadh an ceart acu éirí as ag 65 le pinsean réasúnta tar éis dóibh a bheith ag obair go crua ar feadh a saoil ar fad. It is the duty of any Government worthy of the name to provide a State pension that allows pensioners to live a good and secure life. People looking on today will be very worried. I have a straight question for the Taoiseach and I would like a straight answer. Why is his Government so dead against the right to retire with a decent pension at the age of 65?

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My first point is a general one.

People get anxious and worried when politicians tell barefaced lies. Generally, as politicians, we should not tell the public barefaced lies. We should tell the people the truth.

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Look in the mirror.

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The bottom line is clear here.

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Does the Taoiseach want a mirror?

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The pension age is 66. I do not know where Deputy McDonald is coming from. The Deputy is not telling the truth in her presentation because the Government decision is that the pension age will not rise beyond 66. Under this system, people will still be able to retire at 66 and draw down their full pension in exactly the same way as they can today.

Sinn Féin has been in government for the past number of years in Northern Ireland. Sinn Féin voted to increase the pension age to 66 and Deputy McDonald has the nerve to come in here and attack this Government for retaining the pension age at 66. I do not know how the Deputy does it.

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It is a spectacular feat that Deputy McDonald pulls off. Sinn Féin has been in government in Northern Ireland for well over a decade and its members voted for 66 as the pension age. This Government has decided people will retire at 66.

We are creating choice for people as well because people always seek choice in terms of their pension options and in terms of the State pension. The Report of the Commission on Pensions has a range of sustainability measures also. There needs to be a collective engagement by the House on that to make sure the pension system is sustainable over a ten-year, 20-year, 30-year and 40-year horizon.

The Social Insurance Fund is in surplus. It will be in surplus now, I think, to the tune of potentially €3 billion. Original estimates some years ago would have had it at a deficit. That can change too. That can change to the negative. I have to be clear and add that. Every politician in this House has a responsibility to the younger generations as well to make sure the pensions are sustainable. That will involve difficult decisions in the years ahead in respect of PRSI, etc.

Deputy McDonald is desperate to win more and more votes and become more popular than ever but I ask her not to put that one out there. The Deputy should not tell that basic untruth that somehow the pension age is not staying at 66 when she knows full well that the Government decision today is that people will still be able to retire at 66 and draw down their full pension in exactly the same way as they can today.

Let us not cause that anxiety to people. Let us not create a false story. Let us not fake it. Let us not create fake news here. Fake news can worry people and can cause anxiety. There is no need to cause it in respect of the pension age of 66, no need at all. Caithfidh mé a rá gur sin í an fhírinne. Ní chás d’éinne bréaga a insint faoin gcinneadh atá déanta ag an Rialtas maidir leis an bpinsean. Caithfidh mé a bheith dearfach faoi sin. Beifear in ann éirí as an obair ag 66 bliana d’aois.

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All of the anxiety that has been caused on this issue has been caused by the Taoiseach and people of his ilk who had plans, bear in mind, to ratchet the pension age up to 67, 68 and beyond. The Taoiseach cited all sorts of reasons and rationale for doing that. Our position has been and remains consistent that the appropriate and fair age to be given the choice to retire with one's pension is the age of 65.

What today's proposal sets out is a system of deferral, an enticement the Taoiseach might say, for people to work on until they are 70. I regard that as a move of coercion, not to incentivise but by stealth to-----

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-----ratchet the pension age up to 70, and that is simply wrong. I am not one bit ageist. For sure, there are those who will wish to work beyond the age of 65 and they must be facilitated in that. More power to them.

However, we live in the real world, gentlemen and ladies, and we live in a world where people who have worked from a young age in very physical jobs simply are not able and do not wish to work beyond 65.

Let me repeat my question to the Taoiseach and he might answer without evasion or insult towards me. Why is he so against the simple premise of a retirement age of 65 by choice and why is the Government's proposal today-----

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Please, Deputy. You are way over time.

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-----not simply to set that out?

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Who made this up for the Deputy? The Government decision is clear. Anybody will be able to retire at 66 under the Government decision, just as they can do so today. Does the Deputy not get that?

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Deputy McDonald is deliberately not telling the truth on this one, it seems to me, in respect of the age and the deferral. She moves to the Trojan horse - I do not who made it up-----

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Then the Taoiseach should address-----

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I have addressed it.

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The core issue is the age, which is 66.

As for the second issue to which the Deputy referred, she said we all want to facilitate people who want choice and who might wish to stay working.

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We in Sinn Féin introduced legislation on that years ago.

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That is what the Government is doing. It will facilitate people who may want to defer whatever they want to do.

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Okay. The Taoiseach does not want to answer. He will not stand over his own proposal. Fine.

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The full pension will be available to people at 66. That is the Government decision - no question about it.

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And an enhanced pension at 70.

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The Deputy has an obligation to the public watching in to be faithful in how she describes the decision the Government is taking.

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Yes. I have described it accurately.

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In addition, as for the 65-year-olds, the Minister has got sanction from the Government to explore avenues to facilitate those who have worked 40 years of their lives, in manual work in particular, and are not in a position to continue working. That is also a decision the Government took today.

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We need to move on now to Deputy Shortall.

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