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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Energy bills and disconnections

Summary

Deputy Doherty says soaring energy prices are forcing families into hardship and demands a winter disconnection ban, including for prepayment meter users. The Minister argues the Government is using a wider package of supports, while opposition members accuse him of abandoning 450,000 households and the row becomes heated before the chair moves on.

Tá an babhta is déanaí d’arduithe i bpraghsanna fuinnimh atá á fhógairt ag comhlachtaí fuinnimh ag cur brú millteanach airgeadais ar oibrithe agus ar theaghlaigh ar fud an Stáit. Sa chéad leath den bhliain seo, dícheanglaíodh leictreachas in os cionn 700 teaghlach agus gás in os cionn 300 teaghlach. Caithfidh an Rialtas cosc dícheangail a thabhairt isteach anois agus cinntiú go mbeidh an cosc i bhfeidhm dóibh siúd atá ag úsáid méadar réamhíoctha.

We need a real plan from the Government that ensures that every single household is protected from disconnections this winter. The latest round of energy price increases announced by the providers is putting real pressure on families and workers right across the State. In the first half of this year, over 700 households were disconnected from their electricity and over 300 had their gas disconnected. Since then, bills have skyrocketed. More and more families are falling behind. The possibility of these numbers increasing over the winter months is very real.

This week, Sinn Féin passed a Dáil motion calling on the Government to ensure that all households would be protected from gas and electricity disconnections during the winter months. At the core of the motion were two demands. The first was a ban on disconnections now, instead of what the Government is planning, which is in December. Second, this ban would apply to all households, including the hundreds of thousands of households that use prepay meters, which this Government has forgotten about and abandoned. This is the urgent action we need. As the weather turns, the fear of disconnection is very real and very present. Two weeks ago, the Taoiseach gave a commitment. He said that nobody would be disconnected this winter, including households using prepay meters. These were welcome words but they were only words, with no action to deliver on them.

Instead of taking responsibility to protect households from disconnection, the Minister told them to go to the local social welfare officer. To make matters worse, his Green Party colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, went on TV on Sunday and told people not to look to the Government for help but to go to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Citing measures the Government has taken, he said: "St. Vincent de Paul and MABS are working with electricity providers to provide friendly credit." His comments reveal yet again that this Government is painfully out of touch. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul does incredible work. Nobody can take away from that. Only for it, many people would go hungry in this State. However, it beggars belief that a Minister of State would heap further pressure on it during such difficult times. It just is not good enough for the Government to outsource its responsibility to charities. We need a real plan. We need a plan from the Government that ensures that every single household is protected from disconnections this winter. Some prepay companies already have bans on disconnections at weekends, on public holidays or during other peak times. This ban should be extended to all households 24-7, providing that protection during the winter period.

The Minister needs to grasp this issue with urgency. We have been saying this for weeks and we have been saying it to his Government colleagues for weeks. This is in his portfolio. This is his responsibility. All households need to be protected from energy disconnections this winter. The Government must introduce a disconnection ban now and ensure that those using prepay meters are included. I have some simple questions for the Minister. Does this Government have any intention whatsoever of giving action to the commitment the Taoiseach gave that nobody would be disconnected this winter, including those on prepaid meters, or was that just a false promise? Will the Minister do the right thing? Will he give action to those words? Will he introduce a ban on disconnections for households immediately and run it to the end of March? Crucially, will he ensure the hundreds of thousands of people who use prepay meters are included in this ban?

Comment on this
Eamon Ryan Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications Green Party

The Taoiseach was absolutely right that this Government is committing to protecting and helping every single family and household through this very difficult time in paying energy bills. There is a variety of measures. If they were easy and simplistic solutions that would be great but that is not the real world. In this real world what is actually working is the range of measures the Government is delivering on, such as increases in social welfare protection and increases in energy payments to households. As I understand it, last week Sinn Féin was arguing that we should be giving greater loans to people in difficulty, particularly households using prepay meters. From listening and talking to the experts in the area, they say that is not the right solution because it would put people into further debt. We have been talking to the energy supply companies and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and setting out a policy in a co-ordinated and proper way. We will come out in the coming weeks with a further iteration of our combating energy poverty action plan. That will build on what actually works.

The Deputy says this measure is charity. I disagree. What we are talking about here is the community, the Governments, NGOs and others working together. It is not charity. It is appropriate that we use the tools that work. Sinn Féin has argued against special needs payments and says that should not be our approach. Sinn Féin's budget proposed a €15 million hardship fund. So far this year we have spent €38 million. The Minister for Social Protection has committed to making sure we have the staff and the resources so that any household in difficulty is able to avail of those funds. That is far better than the credit solution Sinn Féin is proposing, which would put families into further debt difficulties.

We launched the next phase of the #ReduceYourUse campaign yesterday. We did so in the offices of Alone because of its expertise and ability to find, target and help households, particularly those in older age groups, that might not find it easy to go through the social welfare system. We are targeting, identifying and helping them. It is right and appropriate to use the mechanisms that are in place and that are working. Rather than cutting people off, households can avail of the funds that are there and which can be deployed with advice from MABS, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others. Why would we get rid of a system that has the financial resources to help those households and is working? We will continue to make sure it works right through this winter period.

It is so easy to suggest a facile solution to what is actually a very complex situation, where every household has different circumstances. The right approach in tackling poverty and energy poverty at this particular time is providing cash payments. That is the best way to help people through, as well as a range of other measures. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, has already significantly changed its rules and recognised this problem, so if people do get into debt difficulties, they will have much easier repayment schedules. Anyone in such difficulty, particularly those on prepay meters, has to have access to the cheapest payment rates. It is these practical measures that actually address the problem and will get us through this difficult period.

As I said, if there are any gaps or any instances where people are not able to get resources to help, we will look at that and go back and change the policy. That commitment from the Government is real. That commitment to help our households is real in the billions of euro that have been provided in energy credit payments, which will start on 1 November. That is a measure where people get cash and we saw how the first payment worked. The number of families in arrears went from about 200,000 down to 150,000. That was from one payment. We have three further payments to deploy. That is real money and real help.

Comment on this

The Minister said the Government will look at this "if there are any gaps". Let me point out the gap. There are 450,000 households that the Government has abandoned. The Minister spoke about energy credits. They are welcome and they will be available to people but there is also a ban on disconnections for hundreds of thousands of people who use bill payment. Why is that? It is because the Government recognises that this winter is going to be severe and that there should be a ban but for 450,000 people on prepay meters, the Government has decided to abandon them. The Minister said the Taoiseach was right. The Taoiseach did not say the Government would do all it can. He said nobody will be disconnected this winter. The disconnections are happening. The Minister talked about the real world. This is happening. People are self-disconnecting. That is what is really happening. Why can we not have a bit of fairness? There could be one house beside the next with the same financial problems and getting the same energy credit but one has the protection that it will not be disconnected this winter and the other does not. That is 450,000 households across the State, made up of vulnerable people who are looking into this winter and seeing a Government that has abandoned them. It needs to do the right thing. I ask the Minister to do the right thing and give action to the commitment that was given by the Taoiseach. He must introduce a ban on disconnections now, not in December, and introduce it for all households, giving them certainty that the heat and the lights will stay on over this winter period.

Comment on this

Those 440,000 people have a whole range of different circumstances. Many people go onto prepay because it actually works for them and helps them in budgeting.

Comment on this

The Minister does not believe that.

Comment on this

It gives them the ability to reduce their bills and to reduce their use by about 8%. That is the experience of what is actually happening. There are complications in this because there is both gas and electricity. Yes, we will continue to look at the rules and regulations that would help them through a particularly difficult period. A lot of people disconnect when they are moving home or ending a tenancy. People are in a whole range of circumstances. To my mind, the critical thing is that people have the money so they do not have to disconnect. That ability, be it through funds from the likes of MABS, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or others, can help to-----

Comment on this

Why do we have a ban on others being disconnected?

Comment on this

There is nothing wrong with that as a mechanism to help people out. Furthermore, that €38 million in additional needs payments is a system that works. It is fair, targeted and correct. It is targeting where we need the money most. Provision for that is the right approach to help people through this particular period.

Comment on this

You have absolutely abandoned them.

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Catherine Connolly An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Independent

Can we listen with respect?

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Your solution is a blank cheque to the energy companies.

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You have abandoned them.

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Even Downing Street-----

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You have a guarantee that your electricity will not be disconnected, but 450,000 people have been abandoned by you.

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-----has walked away from the Sinn Féin solution, which is a blank cheque to the energy companies. We will help the people, not the energy companies.

Comment on this

Some 450,000 households have been abandoned by your Government and you have the cheek here to smirk across the floor.

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Even Downing Street has walked away from it.

Comment on this
Catherine Connolly An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Independent

If we proceed like this, proceedings will be abandoned. We have visitors in the Gallery. Tá daltaí thuas an staighre ag breathnú orainn. Iarraim ar na Teachtaí a gcuid tacaíochta a thabhairt dom. Bogfaimid ar aghaidh go dtí an Teachta Catherine Murphy.

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