There have been no licences.

The inadequacy of the plans is baffling. It seems that the Government cannot see the wood for the trees, if I may say. Failures in the licensing system have made the large-scale planting of trees and woodlands an impossible endeavour for many farmers and nurseries. The delays are leading to many dropping out of the system. I have been told that approximately one third of those approved for planting are dropping out before any trees can be planted. Instead of proceeding with the Gresham House deal, why is the Government not focusing on reform of the afforestation system and making afforestation a viable option for farmers and landowners in Ireland? Will the Minister share the Government's policy to explain why the Government is not focusing on this? If this is not the Government's preferred model, as it appears the Gresham House deal is not, then has Coillte gone rogue on the Government?

The licensing system is no longer in disarray.

It is.

The Minister of State, Senator Pippa Hackett, has changed that and turned it round.

No licences have been given.

Deputy Bacik said there is not a programme. There is a programme.

That is a ridiculous thing to say.

It is specific, real and fully funded.

No.

It is a €1.3 billion funding mechanism which fundamentally-----

The Government has only planted 2,000 ha this year.

If I can be heard, Ceann Comhairle and Deputy Sherlock.

The Minister is way off target.

It is Deputy Sherlock's leader's question. Let the leader get an answer.

I need to correct Deputy Bacik. What she said, that there is not a programme, is not true. There is a specific programme.

It is not functioning. It was suspended.

It was only introduced in November and it is transformative. It will not just be the State which steps up on this.

The Minister needs a reality check.

Farmers right across the country, under that new programme, will have a critical role. There is a range of new, closer-to-nature agroforestry solutions which we have not delivered in the last 90 years of forestation.

The ash dieback.

It is fundamentally changing and needs to go further.

No licences have been issued.

Part of that change will be a change to Coillte. It needs to change. It has done a brilliant job but it was legislated for in the late 1980s when the emphasis and focus was on privatisation and commercial lumber production. That has changed. Coillte's mandate will be changed. It is already changing towards a closer-to-nature model. We recognise that what has been done with forestry, while it delivered acres and lumber, did not deliver better biodiversity or a better nature solution in our country. Coillte too is part of that change. To help it do that, I believe we need to look at the state aid rules which, in 2003, under legal challenge, restricted what Coillte can do. We will go to Brussels, as we are doing for a variety of different issues related to climate change, to get different rules. We will also get Coillte involved in afforestation on public lands and other lands which are not covered under the likes of this deal that was done with the private sector. That private investment in forestry is taking place anyway. The Coillte deal will at least allow it to be open forest.

In my mind, this cannot be the main solution because the scale of change that will be highlighted in the land use review that this Government is introducing, which will be the defining indication of what type of forestry is needed where, is not just about the number of acres but how we restore nature and tackle the biodiversity crisis as well as the climate crisis, which clear-fell monoculture systems do not do. We will need some timber for lumber production for use in buildings and so on. We are not saying there should be absolutely none.

Rubbish.

In my mind, the central part of our new forestation system is where the State and farmers, primarily, as well as private developers, will be involved in delivering new, more natural, more resilient forests.

As opposed to private venture funds.

That is what we will deliver.

The Minister has accused me of misrepresenting the Government's position but the reality, as he admitted himself, is that there is a forestry strategy which is not operational. It is not having any impact.

It was launched two months ago.

The key problem is that it is not having an impact. We are hearing from those involved in forestry and nurseries, including farmers and environmentalists, that it is simply not operational. The Minister of State, Senator Hackett, told the Seanad earlier this week that the state aid application has not yet been submitted. The Minister said it himself. He plans to go to Brussels but has not gone yet. Once again, the Government is heavy on ambition and setting targets, but light on delivery and actual outcomes. We need to see outcomes here. The Gresham House deal will not deliver the necessary outcome. It is not just us in Opposition making these critiques. In a leaked document which the Irish Examiner reports on today, the European Commission has criticised Ireland's forestry policy in a scathing letter, highlighting particular concerns about planting on peatlands and the impact on birds. The Commission has been critical of this. The state aid application which is the bedrock of the Government's proposed change in forestry policy has not even been submitted yet. It is hard to see how we can expect or anticipate any real delivery of change in forestry.

The Deputy's time is up.

The Coillte deal is not the answer. The Minister said that himself. His Government colleagues have been critical of it too.

The reason that programme, which was only launched a matter of weeks ago, is going to work is that there has been a huge increase in premiums, particularly for farmers, who are getting a 20-year premium as opposed to a 15-year premium for others.

The grants cover the cost of plantation, tax free.

When is the Government going to apply?

The premium comes every year, tax free. The sale of the lumber at the end of that goes to the owner tax free.

We know all of that. It was suspended.

When is the Government going to apply?

That is going to lead to a massive expansion.

When is the Government going to apply?

It is happening. You would want your head examined to not start investing in forestry under the programme that has been put in place.

It is shocking.

The truth, from my perspective as Minister with responsibility for climate, is that we will not only need 8,000 ha per annum but a multiple of that.

Maybe write to the Minister or something.

The critical question, to go back to the matter of quality not just quantity, is that of where. We made a mistake in the first stage of the evolution of forestry in the State where it was on the marginal lands on peaty soils in uplands areas where we drained the soils and released carbon. It is now going to have to come down and will have to be integrated. Many farmers will plant and continue farming but they also have a forestry stream within the farm.

When is the state aid application going in?

This is happening.

This is real life that we are talking about.

Time, please.

This was launched weeks ago. Mark my words, because it is so generous in regard to the changed premiums, it will take off-----

This is Jesuitical nonsense.

Thank you, Minister.

-----as well as Coillte and other private operators being involved in afforestation.

Please. We are over time.

The Gresham deal is not the future of Irish forestry.

It is not. We are agreed on that.

It cannot be. The future has to be more diverse, better for water quality and better for nature as well as providing -----

Will the Minister adhere to the time allocation, please.

We are providing the forestry and we are driving it on.

Driving it into the ground, Charlie.

He is lost in the woods.

Now, now.

Ask the farmers about ash dieback.

He is lost in the forest, I am afraid.

This is not a comedy hour that we are having. Can we have Deputy Tóibín, please?