Tens of thousands of people are now refusing to pay the TV licence. The licence, as the Minister knows, is €160 and people are voting with their feet in huge numbers. Is it any wonder? People are understandably angry. They feel they are being taken for a ride. The recent financial scandals at RTÉ, the latest chapter of which is the debacle of Toy Show The Musical, have rocked people's trust and confidence in the national broadcaster. The number of people refusing to pay has soared in the aftermath of these scandals. Sixty people per day face prosecution for non-payment. A staggering 13,000 people were summoned before the courts last year. There is a real crisis now and the danger is that funding for public service broadcasting drains away while the Government twiddles its thumbs.

As public support for the TV licence collapses, the Government is all over the place. The Government's position is a merry-go-round of contradictions and mixed messages that is driving people up the walls. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, says she is in favour of abolishing the licence and replacing it with Exchequer funding but the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, says the TV licence should remain a core part of RTÉ funding and suggests that Revenue might collect the fee. Meanwhile, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, says the licence should remain in place and that he is not in favour of replacing it with direct Exchequer funding. Only yesterday, the Taoiseach described the licence as "outdated" and said that it belongs to a different time. One can see why people's heads are spinning.

The Government has promised for years to come up with a new model to replace the TV licence and yet here it is, plodding along in a mist of confusion with a licence that does not now enjoy widespread public support. The public wants decisive action on this. For our part, Sinn Féin would abolish the TV licence and invest Exchequer funding into supporting public service media in Ireland to put them on a sustainable footing. This, of course, is in line with the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission Report, which has been sitting on the Government's desk for two years now. Such an approach would remove the unfair nature of the licence and remove the ridiculous idea that the State might chase thousands of people through the courts for non-payment of a licence that is on the verge of collapse. Caithfidh an Rialtas deireadh a chur leis an táille agus maoiniú díreach an Státchiste a chur ina áit chun todhchaí a chinntiú do chraoltóireacht seirbhíse poiblí.

Despite the damaging fiascoes of the past year, people understand the value and importance of public service broadcasting but they want the Government to be upfront about how it is going to be funded into the future. They want a modern funding model that works and delivers value for money. I invite the Minister to bring some clarity today. I put it to him that the Government should scrap the TV licence and replace it with direct Exchequer funding. That, in my view, is the best way to rebuild public trust and ensure a strong future for public service broadcasting in Ireland. What is the Minister's position on this?

My position is that we have to support public service broadcasting and a whole range of media organisations in this country because in a world full of disinformation, fake news and conspiracy theories, it is important to have accurate, balanced and fair reporting. The Government will absolutely deliver a new format of broadcasting support and funding for such broadcasting and not just for RTÉ. That has been delayed and was delayed because of the events of last summer and leading into the autumn when there was controversy over what happened in RTÉ. I do not need to rehearse all the details. The various Oireachtas committees have done it in real depth and detail. That process will conclude in the coming weeks. There will be another report, initiated by RTÉ, tomorrow on the governance of severance payments. The two final reports on the governance issue that are due in February will allow us to come to a conclusion of that process and set out the future payments and supports for RTÉ, and, indeed, for other media organisations, through whichever mechanism, be that through direct Exchequer or household payments or whatever other arrangement we will decide upon. We will do that. Clarity can only come when the Government has made that decision.

Sinn Féin also must provide certain clarity on what the Deputy has said today. The first question to clarify is whether the Deputy is suggesting people should not pay the TV licence fee in the interim period. If she is suggesting that, it would be damaging and dangerous because we need to keep that funding coming through. I would prefer clarity, because the Deputy seemed to insinuate it would not be the case. It would be good to get clarity in that regard.

I would have to argue that in a world where media are increasingly under threat and are finding it increasingly difficult to find funding models, Sinn Féin's position of taking repeated legal actions against various media here-----

Ah, stop.

-----is similarly, in my mind, having a significant impact on the independence and strength of Irish media.

Hear, hear.

Yes, we will resolve the funding issue. It is appropriate in my mind to do so when the various immediate governance issues in RTÉ have been addressed and resolved. We have to do it in a way whereby we do provide significant funding. If it comes from the Exchequer, it is still being paid by the Irish people. That money will possibly have to come from some other budget, be it social welfare, disability or wherever else. There is not a magic money tree so we have to make sure money is well spent and that we raise the tax revenues to cover it. In the interim period, people should pay the licence fee because it provides a real service of value to the Irish people. It provides real strength to our democracy and our country. I will say, and I am keen to hear Sinn Féin say, that people should pay the licence fee in the interim period because that money is well spent and serves us well. We will then address the longer-term issue in the coming months, before the summer period, in order that we set it on a course that is stable and continuous and delivers.

I am glad that in her closing comments, the Deputy said people respect the value of public service broadcasting because I believe they do. For all their flaws, and all of us in the political system have difficulties with various media organisations and from time to time differ about how they cover us, any fair assessment would say that through RTÉ and our other media organisations, particularly for current affairs, we are, by and large, well served by media that are independent, fair and not biased, and which do not deserve to be attacked by legal challenge or by other public commentary which does them down, too much of which I have heard from our political system.

I have heard some bluster in my time but that really was a bravura performance of absolute rubbish - sound and fury, signifying nothing. My God, it is remarkable how one person can talk so much and say so very little in response to a very straightforward question. Is the Government for the TV licence or not? I have stated our position, which is in line with the expert view of an expert commission. When it was published, the Government dismissed that view. We do not do that. We accept the commission's view. The correct answer is direct Exchequer funding.

Will it be the licence fee - yes or no?

Regarding paying our TV licence, I am happy to record that I have paid mine. I have made no suggestion that people not pay their TV licence. The Minister should save his homily for the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, who equivocated on the matter. What I do wish to be clear on is that the State and this Government should not chase thousands of people through the courts for non-payment of the licence fee. It seems that only the ordinary Joe who has not paid his licence is the only one facing the wrath of anyone or being held accountable in the midst of all the scandal. Can I put my question again and can I get a direct answer? Will the Government abolish the TV licence - yes or no?

We will provide an alternative funding mechanism. I do not expect that it will be a continuation of the current licensing system. The exact details will have to be agreed with Government before I can give the Deputy a final answer on that. Can the Deputy give similar clarity? She is paying her licence. Would she encourage Sinn Féin supporters to also pay their licences?

Oh my God.

Well, I think it is important because we do have a role in public life in standing up for raising taxation to pay for the services we need in this interim period. Deputy McDonald is correct in saying that when the initial report of the Future of Media Commission came out, there was concern in government among party leaders about a potential switch to just Exchequer-based funding. The main reason for that concern was fear that under a future government, there could be political interference that would fundamentally undermine the independence of Irish media. That was the concern and that was the reason for such concern.

You are afraid of Fianna Fáil-----

Well, there have been historic cases. If you look at the history of RTÉ and others, you can see that there were cases of improper and undue political interference. It is not rocket science to say that. I believe we can overcome that by putting in place secure mechanisms so that such political interference would not be successful but that is complicated and there are various other options. We will make that, but as a Government we stand up for an independent media that gives strength to our democracy, which RTÉ and other media organisations do at the moment, and we will fund them into the future to make sure they continue to do that.

Could we all calm down a little, please?