We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Immigration policy and accommodation

Summary

Ivana Bacik says disinformation, racism, inadequate accommodation and uncertainty over the UK’s Rwanda policy show Government failure, seeking urgent shelter for people sleeping in tents and clearer data. The Taoiseach rejects that characterisation, defends the Government’s accommodation efforts and data, and says legislation and cooperation with British and European authorities are being pursued.

The recent debate on immigration has been dominated by disinformation. That is regrettable because it is essential we stick to the facts. Because when we talk about immigration, we are talking about people - people who are seeking refuge here in a country that is a welcoming country. Disinformation is making this country less safe for everyone. Communities are suffering because of far-right activity and because of a rise in racism. We all condemn that.

However, the Taoiseach needs to get a handle on this because his Government’s immigration policy has failed. The clearest evidence of that failure is just around the corner with hundreds of people sleeping in tents and makeshift shelters in desperately unsanitary conditions on Mount Street. I was there again this morning, meeting some of those people and also speaking with local residents and traders who are sympathetic to the plight of those in tents, but also deeply frustrated at the deteriorating situation, with more and more tents each day, no access to sanitation and no sign of any action from Government. It is inhumane and unsustainable. The Government has no accommodation strategy, even while big public buildings like Baggot Street Hospital sit scandalously idle nearby. The Government is not even on top of the situation when it comes to reliable data on immigration. The Minister for Justice has been unable to give accurate figures on migration. It is extraordinary to rely apparently on anecdote when we see so much disinformation circulating and when we see cynical attempts to turn a delicate situation into an election issue.

There is a clear need for EU states to act in concert on this but the migration pact announced by the European People's Party, EPP, the European grouping of the Taoiseach's party, is incapable of addressing the underlying causes of migration into Europe and it has glaring deficiencies on human rights. The Taoiseach’s predecessor refuted the allegation that this amounted to a European Rwanda scheme. But, now, it seems the Taoiseach is not just looking to introduce something like the Rwanda scheme but rather to enforce the Rwanda scheme itself.

We just spoke about how last month saw a High Court decision that Ireland cannot designate Britain as a safe third country for the purpose of returning people seeking asylum. The Taoiseach may have secured approval today at Cabinet to introduce emergency legislation to redesignate Britain as a safe third country but there are two serious issues relating to that proposal. First, under section 21 of the International Protection Act 2015, a safe third country is only safe for a particular applicant if that country is willing to readmit them.

We cannot force Britain or any other country for that matter to take back applicants whom we turn away. We have heard about an operational agreement but we need clarity on what that is and what obligation it places on Britain.

In that High Court case, it was argued that the Rwanda policy would make it impossible to designate the UK as a safe third country. The court did not have to deal with that argument because it was then hypothetical but since then, most regrettably, that policy has become the law in Britain. Deputy Ó Ríordáin and I, together with Westminster British Labour MP Stella Creasy, have for months been raising concerns about the Rwanda Bill and its undermining of the Good Friday Agreement's requirement for equivalence of human rights protections north and south of the Border. The Government should have listened to us then. If the Rwanda policy is fundamentally incompatible with human rights laws, as the UN High Commissioner says, how can the Government possibly designate the UK as safe while that policy remains law in Britain?

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy for the question. First, we have data and we gather data relating to the International Protection Office. While I am not suggesting the Deputy is, we cannot ignore the reality of the island that we live on and the peace settlement that we have on this island. So, we do not count the number of people who come over the Border by nationality or anything else; we know that.

Comment on this

Even though the people-----

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Howlin knows this well too. As I imagine Deputy Bacik knows, when people present at the International Protection Office, very experienced staff, who have done incredible work in a very intense environment, carry out interviews and the likes, and garner, not anecdotes, but data and information on how people have come to our country. They are telling Government and we are telling the Deputies opposite that the overwhelming majority of people now presenting in that office have come from the UK or down from Northern Ireland. Every week when I come into this House, I hear that we would like an honest and open debate about migration. Well, there it is; that is the honest and open reality.

Comment on this

The Tánaiste does not agree with the Taoiseach.

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Now let us discuss how we can address those issues. Let us discuss how the PSNI and An Garda Síochána can work more closely. Let us discuss how we can work to protect the common travel area from abuse. Let us work to see how we can - I welcome the Deputy's comments - work at an EU level because I do not believe we can go it alone. We may differ on some of the detail of the migration paths and I look forward to the opportunity to debate that in the House, but I very much agree on the ultimate need to overhaul EU rules.

I believe the way the Deputy has described the situation on Mount Street is fair. There are two aspects to Mount Street. The first is the need to provide all those vulnerable people living in tents with access to accommodation and a safer setting as quickly as possible. My colleague the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is working very actively on that with a number of other agencies and organisations. That is happening. Deputy Ó Ríordáin does not need to shake his head; it is happening in my constituency.

The second is that once we clear Mount Street and provide people with a safer setting and access to sanitation, we need to make sure that the laws of the land are applied and it is not allowed to happen again because we do not live in a country where makeshift shantytowns are allowed to just develop. We do not and we cannot because the laws of the land are there. I am saying very clearly the plan is to provide the people on Mount Street with better accommodation and access to sanitation and not to allow a situation where ad hocery can come about in terms of the development of accommodation.

Comment on this

It is happening now.

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is a really important thing to do. The people on Mount Street and people in Deputy Bacik's constituency would believe that is an important thing to do.

Regarding the legislation the Minister for Justice intends to bring forward, she today received permission to draft that. The Minister intends to enact legislation by the end of this month. In that legislation she will outline how she intends to respond to the issues that were brought to the fore by the High Court in March of this year. I believe there is a way of doing that, as do the Attorney General, the Minister and all of the Government.

Regarding Rwanda and everything else, it is not the policy of this Government but we obviously need to ensure our rules are enforced, which is really important. People in this country want to see a rules-based migration system.

Comment on this

I raised with the Taoiseach three specific points on which I sought a response on which the Government has failed in its approach. The first was on the provision of accommodation and safe shelter. I am glad the Taoiseach said that safe shelter will be provided to those currently forced to sleep in tents on Mount Street but we need to know when. I have been engaging, as have all the other local representatives, with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, on this but we are deeply frustrated, as are residents as well as the men living in tents. We need to know when that will happen.

The second is the data issue. We need to know where that data is coming from. We understand there is no provision currently for gathering the data on how people enter. We need to know more than just conjectured figures plucked from the air by the Minister. That is crucial in order to create that fair, efficient and rules-based migration process that we in Labour also want to see.

We need clarity on the Rwanda Bill too. While the Taoiseach says an operational arrangement is in place with Britain, what is it? There is a clear difference of approach coming forward from the British Prime Minister, Mr. Sunak, on this. Will the Government publish that agreement and what obligation will it impose on the British Government? We are all of course conscious of the importance of the common travel area. After Brexit, all parties reunited in wanting to see no hard border imposed on the island of Ireland and it is baffling to see some republican parties apparently now reneging on that ideal. That is deeply unhelpful.

Comment on this

Thank you Deputy.

Comment on this

We need clarity of the issue of accommodation provision, on data and on how he is going to deal with the impact of the Rwanda Bill.

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I do not think it is objectively fair to say the Government has failed on accommodation. I do not think there is a community across Ireland who believes that. If you look at the scale of challenge this country has faced and the amount we have done as a people to provide accommodation in very difficult circumstances, that needs to be acknowledged. There are no easy solutions when it comes to accommodation. Again, I am not suggesting the Deputy does this but all too often in our migration debates in Ireland, we start the migration discussion from an accommodation supply point of view. That is the wrong place to start. We need to start from a migration rules-based system and its efficiency in order that people who do not have a right to be here are asked to leave more quickly and that we can stand over the rules that are in place. I believe that is what the people are getting frustrated about right across this country. They want to help people in need-----

Comment on this

It depends on who is in charge.

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----but they also want to know that there is a functioning rules-based system as there is and on which the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has taken a number of measures to make more effective.

Regarding the data issue, I am very confident that the information that has been provided to the Government on processing times is exactly what people are seeing in the International Protection Office. The Department's firm assessment, based on the experience of staff and others working in the field, and on the material they are gathering at interviews, is that over 80% of applicants applying for protection have-----

Comment on this

Has he tried asking the Tánaiste?

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----entered over-----

Comment on this

The Tánaiste does not agree with the Taoiseach.

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Pardon me?

Comment on this

The Tánaiste does not agree with you.

Comment on this

Sorry now, let us not have a conversation.

Comment on this
Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I speak for the Government of which the Tánaiste is a part and I am very confident in saying that the Tánaiste, I as Taoiseach and all members and parties of the Government are very clear on this. The Tánaiste made a valid point yesterday that does not contradict the Minister, Deputy McEntee's point at all.

Comment on this

It literally does.

Comment on this

I thank the Taoiseach.

Comment on this