Before I start, I acknowledge the distressing escalation of conflict in the Middle East. Our thoughts and, I am sure, all our thoughts are with all those affected, with our Defence Forces in south Lebanon, their families and our citizens trapped in the region, who must be brought home. We need to see all diplomatic means exhausted to bring about peace in the region.

I wish to raise with the Taoiseach today the question of child protection and how his Government will stand by survivors of child abuse in Irish schools and institutions. It is an issue that has been brought into light recently. Over recent years, we have gained a new understanding of the scale of the abuse perpetrated against children, in particular, across so many religious and State-run institutions through disclosures of abuse in industrial schools, orphanages, mother and baby homes and Magdalen laundries. Most recently, thanks to the immense bravery of survivors like the Ryan brothers, we have learned of the awful abuse of students and young children in a significant number of religious-run schools. We have also heard new revelations about abuse perpetrated by Bishop Eamonn Casey, among others.

Each time we hear about abuse perpetrated upon children in religious-run institutions, there are calls for religious orders to step up and pay their share of redress. When the dust settles, however, the State has never really stepped up to make sure those religious organisations do pay up. I have seen this myself. As a legal practitioner previously representing survivors of abuse, I saw how many were often retraumatised by a flawed redress process, in some cases, and by religious orders’ refusal to engage. The Government and the Taoiseach have called, as have I, on religious orders to pay their share of redress. The problem is that many are hiding behind what I have called the "developer’s wife syndrome" - I think we are all aware of this - where orders transfer their assets to lay-run trusts, meaning the orders may be legally liable to pay redress but no longer have the means or assets to do so. Of course, the lay-run trusts have no legal liability. What makes this troubling ethically is that the assets involved are so extensive. I have seen an investigation by Noteworthy for The Journal showing that religious orders involved in historic abuse sold over 75 properties, worth more than €90 million, between 2016 and 2022 alone.

As legislators, we must go beyond condemnation of abuse and appealing to the moral duty of orders. We have to review the broader issue of why we still have the bulk of schools under religious patronage and why we do not have a true separation of church and State. On the practical issue of redress, just three weeks ago, I shared with the Taoiseach a Bill that we in the Labour Party drafted to ensure religious orders would be compelled to contribute in full to redress schemes and could not hide behind any legal mechanisms or lay-run trusts. The Taoiseach said he will work with the Opposition parties on this crucial issue. Indeed, I previously welcomed the engagement of the Minister, Deputy Foley, with Opposition parties on the scoping inquiry and the commitment to statutory redress. What the Taoiseach has not confirmed is whether he will ensure that organisations that facilitated or even covered up abuse will now be compelled to pay redress. Will the Taoiseach legislate to make the orders pay their share before a general election?

I thank Deputy Bacik for raising this important issue around child protection and child abuse and making sure we have a zero-tolerance approach to this matter in all organisations, including in State agencies, political parties and everywhere else. I could not agree more with the Deputy. The issue of child protection is the most important one. Child abuse is something that sickens everybody to the very gut of their stomach. It absolutely does. I thank the Deputy for her constructive engagement and suggestions. I assure her we will work with her and all of the Opposition in relation to getting this matter right. I think the Deputy's critique of successive governments is fair. Many of us have been in them over the years. The people in good faith try to establish inquiries and get to the bottom of things, and then it seems we are always one report away. We have had so many reports into sexual abuse. Let us be really honest. It is such a stain on our country. The pain caused by the sins of the past is destroying lives today.

We have had engagement over decades, if we think about it, with religious orders on whether people will do the right thing. Let us be honest, they have not or certainly the overwhelming majority of them have not. The short answer is "Yes". We will work with the Opposition and engage with the Labour Party's legislation. An interdepartmental group was set up after the scoping inquiry into sexual abuse in schools. As part of that work, the Attorney General has been asked to consider the whole issue of how to ensure that if a redress scheme is put in place - and there needs to be a redress scheme - there will be mechanisms not just to ask nicely but to make sure that if people do not do the right thing, they will need to contribute to the scheme.

In the first instance, while I know Deputy Bacik would not do so, I do not want to be misrepresented as suggesting that it is just about asking nicely or appealing to people's better nature. When people issue statements, and the religious orders did issue statements of profound regret and the likes, one would hope that they would now do the right thing. I want the Government's position to be clear, and I expect it is also the position across parties in this House, that if people do not do the right thing, we need to find legislative mechanisms to ensure that the correct thing is done.

The Deputy is asking me to give a timeline which is not unreasonable but I want to be honest. I want to get this right and I know the Minister, Deputy Foley, wants to get it right. She has handled the issue very well and sensitively. Deputy Bacik acknowledged the engagement she has had with the Opposition. She has also had great and meaningful engagement with survivors. Making sure that the structures and mechanisms we put in place produce answers, healing, justice, accountability and appropriate redress is important. We will continue to work on this. I have no doubt, and I think I can speak for the House on this, that regardless of when there is a general election, this is something to which we will all commit to getting right and working on together.

I thank the Taoiseach for his acknowledgement that the religious orders have not done the right thing to date. I had hoped for more in terms of a timeline. I ask the Taoiseach to refer our Bill to the Attorney General for advice. Our Bill would facilitate civil proceedings against unincorporated bodies such as, but not confined to, religious orders and would provide for the recovery of any damages awarded from associated trusts of such bodies. It is critical legislation and is needed to ensure that we do right by survivors of abuse. Again, I commend the immense bravery of those survivors who have come forward and condemn perpetrators of abuse. We are all conscious that abuse was not confined to religious-run organisations. Abuse, unfortunately, against children has happened in all sorts of settings and we must all condemn it outright wherever it occurs and do right by survivors. There are some specific actions we can adopt, like the Bill we have proposed and like, for example, honouring those survivors of abuse by Bishop Casey who have called for the removal of his remains from the crypt in Galway Cathedral. These are significant actions that can be taken to do justice by survivors and all of us, in government and opposition, should be committing to do so.

I will ask that the Deputy's party's Bill is referred to the Attorney General as part of his consideration. That is a sensible thing to do. We will continue and I want the Deputy to know, as she probably does from her engagement with the Minister, Deputy Foley, that there is an intense degree of work going on in relation to this. We have seen in the past when we have got mechanisms correct that we have provided people with answers and a degree of healing. However, we have also seen that when we have got mechanisms wrong we have provided people with meeting more senior counsel than one could fit in here, often paid for by the State, and have retraumatised survivors. That is the bit that we want to get right.

The scale of this is alarming. The scoping inquiry was told of 2,395 allegations of sexual abuse involving 884 alleged abusers in 308 schools. The allegations were contained in the records of 42 religious orders which currently run or previously ran schools and include 590 allegations of sexual abuse in special schools. That section of the report is particularly harrowing and horrifying to read. Let us continue to engage on this. I will seek legal advice on the Deputy's legislation.