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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Public spending accountability

Summary

Deputy Tóibín raised a series of examples of perceived public waste, from printers and ventilators to buses, cyber security and other projects, arguing that responsibility is constantly outsourced. The Taoiseach pushed back that some matters belonged to the Oireachtas or agencies, said value for money must be rigorously examined, and ended by arguing the House and its behaviour also cost taxpayers money.

The Oireachtas spent €808,000 on a printer that could not fit into the print room. It then spent €230,000 fixing that room in order that it could be fitted in. It also spent €12,000 to store the printer until it could be installed in the print room. The Government spent €22 million on ventilators that never worked and a further €50,000 on storing them. One hundred electric buses were bought but did not move an inch for 18 months because someone forgot to buy electric chargers for them.

Some €300 million has been spent on metro north and not a shovel has been put into the ground. A total of €2.5 billion has been spent on compensation on adverse incidents or mistakes that have happened in the health service over the past ten years and we have seen the cyberattacks so far cost the State €100 million. We will need to spend another €657 million on security upgrades. We must remember that the current Taoiseach was in the Department of the Taoiseach at that time. He spent €15 million on PR that particular year when the National Cyber Security Centre got €5 million for its total budget, which is an incredible situation. We have had €2.5 billion on the children's hospital, 67 vacant OPW properties and 4,000 empty local authority homes, all during a national housing crisis, bike sheds, security huts, the WRC wall, the great wall of Tara, €7 million on an Arts Council IT system that never materialised, and now we have the latest instalment of the Government's waste, which is the National Gallery of Ireland burying a scanner for €120,000. We were told it was essential enough to buy but not essential enough to actually switch on and for seven years the National Gallery searched for a room to fit this scanner. Columbus found the new world faster than the National Gallery of Ireland found a room in which to fit this particular scanner. It is absolutely incredible. There is a significant pattern. We have citizens to the pin of their collar in terms of the taxes they are being charged, the charges they are paying on a daily basis and yet we have this Government incinerating its taxpayers' money on a daily basis on projects that are going way over budget with nobody being held to account. People are sick and tired of it. People are furious with this. It is an incredible situation. There is no doubt now that we are going to have a review and there could have an investigation. We will have a blizzard of words but a drought of any real action. This is the real frustration. I am quite amazed that the Taoiseach has come in to this Chamber today and basically outsourced responsibility for Government waste. He said it is somebody else's fault and asked how the Government could be held to account in relation to it. It is that culture the Taoiseach has articulated today that is at the heart of the fiasco factory that the Government has become. My question to him is: how he will make it stop?

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At the outset the Deputy mentioned €800,000 spent by the Oireachtas. That is his responsibility just as much as it is anybody's on the Government side of the House.

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Outsourced the responsibility here.

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No, I am not.

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The Taoiseach is outsourcing it.

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No, I am not. It is the Oireachtas. That is the Deputy's responsibility. What has he done about it? We created the commission for the Oireachtas. The Deputy either takes it on board or he does not. That is a matter for the Oireachtas in its entirety. It does not justify it. It was wrong but the Deputy should not try to pin everything on the Government.

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You are the Government.

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What about the OPW?

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The other point is that this Government was not in government in 2017. This is a small little fact-----

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-----that has passed the Deputy by. We are now responsible for something then. I am not blaming the Government then. It is perfectly normal to say that old equipment needs to be replaced with new equipment. What is inexcusable is that those in the National Gallery at the time decided to procure this without figuring out how they were going to deploy it and what room they were going to put it in. It is unacceptable.

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What about the OPW?

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That is why we have the Comptroller and Auditor General to highlight and unearth these issues. That is why the public accounts committee in this House is there. It is there to interrogate and to hold people to account in respect of unacceptable practices and behaviour. That is the bottom line. The Deputy mentioned cybersecurity attacks as if the person or the group - very often criminal organisations-----

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The Government spent €5 million on the National Cyber Security Centre-----

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Sorry, I did not interrupt the Deputy. He have a great habit of interrupting-----

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-----while you spent €15 million on PR.

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I did not interrupt you. You do it all the time, of course. It is a tactic of yours which you learned from your former colleagues. It is a well worn campaigning tactic. The Deputy mentioned cybersecurity attacks as if it is the recipient of those attacks who is responsible for the expenditure. Come on; let us have some balance in the debate. I do not blame the HSE for the cyberattack. There may have been vulnerabilities and maybe we could have been stronger. I blame the Conti group who made that attack on the Irish people through a cyberattack on our entire health service in the middle of Covid. I do not blame public servants who worked extremely hard to deal with it in the interests of the Irish people for that. I do not blame the third level colleges that were vulnerable and that have been attacked by some of these criminal enterprises.

I blame the criminal enterprises. I do not blame a particular university that has been attacked via cyber means. These cyberattacks are attacking the private sector, the public sector and, since Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, cyberattacks have grown exponentially across Europe. They are connected. They are a form of hybrid warfare on those countries that may disagree with the manner and nature of that attack. It is wrong-----

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Taoiseach.

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-----that the Deputy should just neatly try to bundle cyberattacks and the cost of them into the broader-----

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Taoiseach. The time is up.

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-----legitimate issue of value for money in public expenditure, which has to be at the core of everything we do.

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Personal responsibility is the engine of accountability and we do not have too far to look for where personal responsibility exists. In the private sector, in tens of thousands of businesses every day, people in their own work have to work to a certain standard. They have to work to ensure that they do not waste money and they have to meet the objectives of their particular business. If they do not, then there is a cost. They could be moved sideways, have their salary reduced or lose their job. That cost, however, is a catalyst to actual change in terms of accountability. The Government has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it will not accept responsibility. This Government could be transformative in terms of accountability. It could enforce accountability from those is in the top echelons of the Civil Service. It could write into their contracts that they have a responsibility to mind the public purse. It could be written into their contracts that there will potentially be an actual financial cost to them or loss of their jobs if they do not do their jobs. The Government could change the situation whereby citizens are not waking up every morning-----

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Deputy.

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-----to this absolute disgusting waste of money happening in our country-----

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank Deputy Tóibín. I call the Taoiseach.

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-----but it will not. It will spend its time blaming everybody else but itself.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The Deputy's time is up. I thank him. I call the Taoiseach.

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I reject that entirely. By the way, I do not accept his analysis of the private sector and accountability. That is a well-worn trope in this House, but, as far as I can see, anyone who looks at the private sector-----

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Well, anyone watching this----

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-----will see that anyone who is ever in difficulty somehow gets sidelined with a huge sweetheart deal in the private sector. That seems to be the norm. The Deputy should not, therefore, try to make a false comparison between private sector accountability and public sector accountability. I have never bought into it or accepted it. What I will accept, though, is that there absolutely has to be value for money. There has to be a very vigorous and forensic analysis of all spending carried out by the State.

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It is not just about analysis.

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That is legitimate and proper. That is why we have the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts. That is also why we do have the checks and balances. I looked at a list of the codes of practices and various circulars that have issued to every Department and agency. They are all there. We do need better delivery and implementation by people on the ground working in various agencies in that respect.

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Who is responsible for that?

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Either do that or abolish every single agency in the country and we certainly are not going to do that.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Taoiseach. The time is up.

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That is what the Deputy is trying to say in here if we take that approach to its logical conclusion.

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You are the embodiment of-----

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That is what the Deputy is saying.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Taoiseach. I ask him to resume his seat. The time is up.

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By the way, through the Chair, I think the Oireachtas needs to reflect on itself as well.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I thank the Taoiseach. The time is up.

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Behaviour in this House has cost the taxpayer a lot of money as well.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

A Thaoisigh, suigh síos. The time is up.

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I saw that programme last week in respect of what happened to Angela Kerins on foot of this House, which cost the taxpayer a lot of money.

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