Seacht mí ó shin, cuireadh Rialtas an Aire ar an eolas go raibh Airí, daoine atá íoctha suas le €200,000, i bhfad níos mó ná gnáthoibrithe na tíre seo, tar éis an iomarca pá a fháil. Seacht mí ar aghaidh, tá a fhios againn anois go bhfuil deichniúr Aire sa Rialtas seo nach bhfuil tar éis pingin rua den airgead sin a thabhairt ar ais. Ba chóir dúinn a bheith ionraic faoi cad go díreach atá i gceist anseo. Ní airgead an Rialtais ná airgead na Roinne é. Is airgead an phobail é, airgead cáiníocóirí na tíre seo.

Seven months ago, the Government was informed that Ministers, people who are already handsomely paid - far more than average workers - have been overpaid. Seven months on, we now know that ten serving Ministers have not paid back a single red cent. They have not arranged a repayment plan, settled their account or even taken the most basic steps of returning money that never belonged to them in the first place. On top of that, we know that 17 former Ministers have not repaid what they owe either. A total of 27 individuals who have held high office, some of whom still hold high office, who know better, who earn salaries and pensions far out of reach of the ordinary person, are still sitting on taxpayers' money. Let us call it what it is. This is not the Government's money. This is not the Department's money. It is the public's money. It is taxpayers' money. The shocking thing is that the public only came to learn about this yesterday after my question to the Minister, Deputy Chambers, in the finance committee. His explanation, if you could call it one, is that there is ongoing follow-up with the Ministers. Seven months later, and there is ongoing follow-up. Only in this Government could a phrase like that be used to justify a complete absence of urgency, discipline, accountability or consequence.

Let us be clear about the contrast here. If ordinary workers or pensioners are overpaid by the Department of Social Protection, through no fault of their own, they are not given seven months to agree to pay it back. What happens in the real world is very simple. The Department acts without delay. That is the experience of ordinary people right across the State. Why is it one rule for ordinary people and another rule for Government Ministers? Why is the ordinary worker or pensioner given little or no time, yet the Ministers, some of them on up to €200,000, think it is okay for them not to repay the public the tens of thousands of euro they were overpaid?

These are not trivial sums. We are not talking about small numbers. We are talking about amounts of up to €30,000 that are owed by individual current Ministers and still, they could not be bothered to pay back even one red cent. These are the same Ministers who decided the recent budget, a budget that left ordinary, working people worse off in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. All the while, they are sitting on public money that does not belong to them, that they were asked to repay seven months ago, and that they have not repaid. These are the Minister's colleagues. God knows, they could be sitting beside him. What exactly are these Ministers waiting for? What is the Government going to do about this scandal? Will the Minister tell us today when every single cent of this public money will be paid back? There must be no vague assurances and no ongoing follow-up. Crucially, will the Minister please tell the Irish public what defence the Government offers that ten current Government Ministers have neither paid back this money nor even made an arrangement to pay back this money seven months after they were requested to do so?

I thank the Deputy for his question. I want to clearly point out that the underpayments and overpayments in question have come about through a series of administrative errors in the National Shared Services Office, NSSO. Critically, the cohort of people who are affected include, first, retired civil servants who previously work-shared and whose pensions were undercalculated and, second, current and former Ministers and officeholders and retired civil and public servants. Those are the cohorts who are affected by the error in the NSSO. Primarily for Government Ministers, what has happened is that, through a series of Government decisions where Ministers took a deduction in their pay, a salary sacrifice, the question was posed of whether the pension deduction calculation should be on the gross salary or on the net amount that was sacrificed. This was obviously brought to the attention of the Minister for public expenditure and reform last year.

Unlike what the Deputy said, there was a public statement on the matter and the Minister answered questions at that time. This was not the fault of any politician or former civil servant; it was an error by the NSSO. The Government immediately committed to having a review carried out by Derek Moran, the chairperson of the NSSO. That will report in March to ensure that something like this does not happen again.

Regarding the ten Ministers the Deputy cites who currently have not concluded the pay agreement to repay moneys owed, a number of clarifications have been sought about the calculations that were brought forward. I know that everyone has the right to ensure that they are paying the correct amount and every single Minister wants to ensure they are doing that. That is very important.

The Government is crystal clear that any retired civil servant or Minister who does not comply or pay back what is due to the Exchequer will not receive their pension because this is a key requirement in funding their pension. I also robustly challenge what the Deputy says about the social welfare protection code that we have in this country. I, like many politicians, do weekly clinics, meeting constituents who are very vulnerable. The Department of Social Protection does not demand a repayment immediately. It works out payment plans that respect vulnerable citizens throughout the State.

Not seven months later.

There are limits on the gross threshold that is deducted every single week, bearing in mind the vulnerable situations that families find themselves in. I have worked with the Department in representing people who, sometimes through no fault of their own, have an overpayment to the Department of Social Protection.

Did you ever get seven months of a window for them?

The second point I want to robustly challenge is that there is nothing in this budget for workers or those who are most vulnerable in society. We have put forward a €300 million package for people who are vulnerable and to ensure that those who are working on lower incomes are rewarded. We have increased the minimum wage by 40% over the last four years. Deputies will see from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, returns that real growth in wages in our economy has come through over the last number of years, with 13 sectors growing. We have also protected the most vulnerable by reducing the VAT rate on gas and electricity to 9%, which is €100 a month, implementing the free schoolbook scheme and increasing social protection payments by €10, which amounts to €520 for families every single year, as well as making improvements to the hot meals programme.

There is also the public service pay agreement, which gives an increase of 17% over the lifetime of the agreement to those who are most vulnerable, in particular, a 3% top-up for incomes under €50,000. That is how the Government is delivering and protecting the most vulnerable. To do that, we need to have a strong engine room, a strong economy, about which Deputy Doherty would know absolutely nothing.

Hear, hear.

Give the Minister a wee clap there because he defended some of you anyway. God knows, it may be the people beside you who owe the tens of thousands of euro, money that is still resting in their accounts no doubt.

There is a lot of dodgy money around-----

The Minister doth protest too much.

How did you buy your constituency office? Yourself and Pádraig bought it for cash, did you not?

Let me make the point. Maybe the Members heckling have the most to answer for in relation to this. The core issue is that Ministers were overpaid tens of thousands of euro. Some Ministers paid that money back. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Jack Chambers, he called on all the Ministers to pay it back. The Minister, Deputy Burke, did not even have the audacity or cop-on to do that. This money is not the Ministers' money. It is the public's money. These are Ministers who are paid €200,000, senior Ministers who are holding on to this money seven months later. There are clear rules in relation to this. The money has to be paid back within 12 months. Deductions of at least 8% have to be applied in relation to salaries and Ministers are holding out. It is absolutely unacceptable. These are the same Ministers who stand in front of me and tell me they did not leave people with disabilities high and dry even though we know they are €1,400 worse off. I do not know to this day whether the Minister in front of me today, yesterday or last week-----

I ask the Deputy to conclude.

-----owed €20,000 or €30,000 to the public purse and has been refusing to do it over the last seven months.

I call the Minister.

I ask the Minister to do the decent thing and-----

Please conclude Deputy Doherty.

-----call on the ten Ministers and his former colleagues, the 17 ex-Ministers, to immediately engage in a repayment plan to pay that money back without delay. It is now seven months on. Nobody else gets that latitude.

Deputy Doherty, please conclude.

These Ministers think they are above the rules and it is not acceptable.

Hear, hear.

I robustly challenge that Ministers are not engaging with the NSSO and are not going to pay this money back.

They have had seven months.

This has a huge net in terms of the number of people affected. I listed the three cohorts that were affected by the NSSO, through no fault of any public representative or anyone who was in-----

Should they pay it back?

-----or anyone who was in receipt and was overpaid or underpaid in relation to a pension deduction for the NSSO. I am making quite clear that all Ministers are engaging with the NSSO, all Ministers will bring this to a conclusion and will ensure-----

When? Will it be next year?

When they get the clarification.

Allow the Minister to answer.

People are fully correct and entitled to seek clarifications from the NSSO, which has made a series of errors in this regard over a number of years. People are entitled to seek clarifications right across the public service, and people are doing that. I can absolutely assure the House this will be brought to a conclusion.

I can also say that in terms of our budget, we have protected the most vulnerable with a €300 million package to ensure the most vulnerable in our society - our carers and those with disabilities - are protected and, critically, that our lower paid workers are getting an increase that is outpacing the rate of inflation in our economy.

Should the Ministers pay the money back?