After the controversy surrounding the treatment of Garda whistleblower Maurice McCabe a decade ago, a new Garda protected disclosures system was developed to protect whistleblowers and to ensure that where concerns are raised, they are followed up. An "RTÉ Investigates" programme from Rita O'Reilly, which will air tonight, will outline that these systems are not working as intended and, worse, that the people who bravely exposed institutional failures are being penalised and even purged. Just last week, Deputy Alan Kelly and I met the courageous whistleblowers involved and heard their stories directly. Many of their revelations relate to the question of serious failings within Garda firearms practices. In particular, there are serious issues with defective gun holsters. Horrifyingly, the issues with holsters arose in the capital murder of Detective Garda Colm Horkan in June 2020 and the serious injury to another garda just days before that. Other serious failings relate to the storage and processing of guns and ammunition. These alarming matters were ignored by senior Garda management for a long time. Amid these appalling practices, as we know, there were people who blew the whistle, brave individuals who put their careers on the line to expose the truth. They will speak for themselves on RTÉ this evening.

Earlier today, we heard the voices of Dr. Donal Corcoran and Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly, two of the whistleblowers, on "Morning Ireland". The detective superintendent said that those who came forward were silenced. Tonight's revelations will highlight the need for the Government, and in particular the justice Minister and the previous justice Minister, to respond to a series of important questions about the integrity of the governance system within our national police force and institutional failings. I know that the Taoiseach has not seen tonight's programme, but the Labour Party has been raising these questions for years and to date, we have had no answers. The current justice Minister had to correct the record, having given Deputy Kelly false information about when precisely his Department became aware of allegations about bad firearms practices in the Garda. Just last year, the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, said that the Department of Justice was not on notice of defective gun holsters until November 2022.

In fact, it was more than two years before that, in August 2020, that the justice Department was first alerted to these concerns, as the Minister then acknowledged in written correspondence with Deputy Kelly. At different times, he gave three different responses to Deputy Kelly, and the difference in dates matters. We will hear more tonight, clearly, about how badly whistleblowers were treated and about the entire reconfiguration of the protected disclosures unit in response to the allegations made. We heard Dr. Corcoran say this morning that the Garda is now in a worse position than it was in the time of Maurice McCabe. Clearly, there are serious outstanding questions for the office of the Garda Commissioner, and both the current and former Commissioners. There are also serious questions for the Taoiseach about ministerial knowledge and Government inaction. Precisely what did this justice Minister and the previous Minister do when alerted to the defective gun holster issue? What did the Taoiseach do when a protected disclosure was made to him on this back in 2022?

The Deputy knows what happens when a protected disclosure is made. It does not go to the officeholder. It does not go to a Minister and it does not go to An Taoiseach. The Deputy knows that well. Why try to distort it? Let us get to the truth here; that is fine. It is reprehensible for any whistleblower to be intimidated or punished. I have no time for any of that. If the Deputy is serious about and honest in what she is saying, she should not be asking me questions that she knows well the answer to.

Oh dear.

That is dishonest politics.

Bí curamach.

I have not seen the programme and I have not met the whistleblowers. The Deputy has.

Of course, and here we go again. Let us change the legislation because it is not tenable that we - all of you, with Government - put into law that we have to have confidentiality around the process. That gets broken in certain ways, whatever way you want and people might feel so frustrated that they have to.

You dealt with McCabe.

I did and the legislation was changed subsequently. Whoever was in the Dáil in 2022 amended the legislation. It seems to me to be an untenable framework now where, on one hand, if a protected disclosure goes in, it is meant to be dealt with independently and separately from Government, which I think is proper actually. It is proper that there is not political interference one way or the other in a protected disclosure. There is not political interference or intervention, nor can or should there be.

In the first instance, I want to see the programme this evening. With the greatest respect to everybody, at the very least what should be required is that everybody look at the entirety of what has been alleged and also hear the response to the entirety of what has been alleged. That is fair. I believe that one or two of these cases might have ended up in the courts already and that process might have come to a different conclusion.

From my perspective, we have to change the entire system now. It is very difficult for Government to respond to loaded questions as to who knew what, when and where when we amended the legislation in respect of how these protected disclosures are to be dealt with in respect of confidentiality and all of that. That is a problem. The Oireachtas should now deal with that from here on in. We need to develop a different system, it seems to me. Some people want confidentiality.

I am disappointed, frankly, to hear the Taoiseach's dismissal of these very serious issues. There are grave public safety concerns here. A Winchester sawn-off shotgun disappeared from Garda custody for 13 years. A protected disclosure was made in relation to that. This is in the public domain already. It referred to assertions against the Commissioner, Drew Harris. At that time, as the Taoiseach knows, the Garda Commissioner had to notify the justice Minister of this issue, as was required under the then section 41 of the Garda Síochána Act, now section 36 of the amended Act. Of course there was ministerial responsibility here. The questions we have to ask, from the Labour Party, clearly relate to ministerial accountability and oversight of the process as legislated for.

It is Kafkaesque and GUBU-esque if those who are in charge of protected disclosures within An Garda Síochána - who have to be independent, absolutely, under legislation - are being victimised and even purged by the senior leadership of An Garda Síochána. That is a matter of concern for the serving Minister of the day.

The Taoiseach to respond.

Undoubtedly we will hear more tonight and we will return to this, but there are very serious matters and serious questions for the Taoiseach's Government.

There absolutely are serious questions but, again, you have to differentiate clearly with regard to a protected disclosure. If a person makes a protected disclosure, it has to be investigated. Would the Deputy accept that? If it has to be investigated, Ministers cannot interfere-----

In accordance with-----

Ministers cannot interfere in the investigation of the protected disclosure. What the Deputy is really implicating and insinuating here is that Ministers should. She is basically saying Ministers should interfere.

No.

Yes, the Deputies are. They are basically saying that the Minister should find-----

If the Garda Commissioner is involved, Ministers have a role.

If the Deputies allow me to finish, what they are saying is the Minister should find out what is going on-----

It is in the legislation.

Again, Deputy Kelly, shouting does not get you everywhere.

I am not shouting. Read the legislation. Tighten up your argument.

You tend to shout almost to prove the veracity of your case or your position.

Deputy, please.

Deputy Bacik is the leader.

Thank you, Taoiseach.

There are legitimate issues of accountability, yes, in respect of issues that fall to An Garda Síochána, its management and all of that but not in terms of protected disclosures. That is the point I was trying to make.