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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Colm Horkan holster case

Summary

Deputy Kelly says the Department knew of the holster issue in August 2020 and criticises how the Brian O’Reilly case was handled, highlighting Colm Horkan’s family. The Minister defends her compliance with the law and oversight reforms.

We will look into that. I want to be associated with the Minister's comments about Deputy Michael Healy-Rae. I am thinking of him, his family and his supporters in south Kerry, many of whom I know very well.

Deputy Doherty raised the question of when the Minister first knew about the holster issue. I have the answer. It took three attempts before the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan's Department would tell me, but we now know it was August 2020. It is shocking that it took three attempts.

The whole country is talking about last night. This does not give me any pleasure. Everyone in this House knows that I have been raising these issues for years. It does not give me any pleasure to stand here today to say what I have to say. Luke, Brian, Donal and Rose are incredible people. They are real honest people. Many of these revelations are not new, by the way. There is a man sitting up there in the press gallery, John Lee, who has written about this for years. So has Mick Clifford. They deserve great credit. There are so many layers to this programme and so many issues that have not been covered but the Minister should not worry; we will cover them in this Chamber over the weeks, months and years to come.

The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, as the sitting Minister, will have to answer for how An Garda Síochána and his Department acted. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, will also need to outline to the House what she did. I am not talking about the details of the individual protected disclosures. I am interested in process and pathways. Brian O'Reilly sent the Minister his protected disclosure in September 2023 as it impugned the then Commissioner. That was the correct thing for him to do because it was about the Commissioner. The Minister sent it to the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner later that month. That was also the correct thing to do. In October 2023, the OPDC sent its statutory direction that the Secretary General of the Minister's Department be appointed to investigate this. The Secretary General made no objection to this. That is where it sits. What happened next was detrimental to Brian O'Reilly's life, his career, his livelihood and the well-being of him, his wife, his children and his family. As Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee directed that the investigation be removed from her Secretary General and redirected to An Garda Síochána, thereby usurping the OPDC's statutory direction. Giving such direction is that office's role. We in this party know the legislation. Deputy McEntee, as Minister for Justice, thereby revealed Brian O'Reilly's identity, depriving him of the legal protections he was entitled to and exposing the nature of his allegations. In doing so, she acted without legal authority and directly interfered with a serious and significant protected disclosure. She did exactly what the Taoiseach spent all day yesterday lecturing us about, telling us that it would be completely and utterly inappropriate. How does the Minister explain this? It was either done deliberately - to be fair to her, I actually do not think it was - or it was just incompetence or a mistake.

Everybody in here is talking about this. On 25 March this year, I told this Chamber that the issue of the holsters, one of which I am holding now, and how the Minister handled protected disclosures would haunt this Government, the Minister herself and the previous Government. Last night's programme absolutely confirmed that to be the case.

Comment on this

I will start where I finished in answering the last question. In my role as Minister for Justice, at all times and on any matter, I adhered to the law and the structures we have to adhere to under this Act and legislation. The Deputy can look elsewhere, shake his head at me or say that I was incompetent or whatever it is he was trying to suggest.

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I did not shake my head.

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That is exactly what he has suggested. I have adhered to the legislation at all times. At all times, I ensured that I everything I did in the Department was to ensure accountability and oversight, even at times when that did not make me popular, which happened quite a lot. How did we make sure there were better structures in place? It was by introducing new legislation, putting in place better oversight mechanisms within the board of An Garda Síochána, making sure the audit committee had oversight of what happened on protected disclosures and introducing Fiosrú so that we would have better protection for those who brought forward protected disclosures. We also amended the 2014 legislation introduced by Deputy Kelly's former party leader. All of this was to make sure that, where people brought forward protected disclosures, procedures were adhered to and that those people were protected, encouraged to come forward and supported, where possible.

I cannot be any clearer in saying that I have always adhered to the rules and the regulations as set out to me. I have always acted in accordance with the law. When it comes to protected disclosures and matters relating to such disclosures that are still before the courts or a tribunal or inquiry, the Deputy will know that this is not something that any of us can talk about. The Taoiseach was very clear about that yesterday. I have repeated that many times this morning. As I have already said, we have an opportunity to review the legislation. There is a legal requirement in the Act to ensure that a review will start by July of next year. I am informed by the Department of public expenditure and reform that this review will start by the end of this year. There is an onus on all stakeholders to participate in that.

Comment on this

I have laid out the facts. I have the documentation here in front of me. I am not interested in the details of the actual disclosures, the pathway and the process. I know what happened here. The Minister will have to explain it, despite everything she has said there, because the way the Brian O'Reilly case was managed by the Minister simply was not appropriate. Most of all though, today, I am thinking of the family of Colm Horkan. I have met them several times, and I know others here have too. They are broken. They are devastated. He should never have been wearing that version of this holster that night. The State let him and his family down. Someone has to stand up for them. Collectively, as a Chamber - Opposition or Government, it does not really matter - we all have to stand up for them.

Will the Government - I mean this - finally do the right thing and sanction an independent investigation into everything to do with how faulty holsters like this were given to our brave men and women serving as gardaí across the country? I know that is what the family wants. I know that is what they deserve.

Comment on this

I thank the Deputy. I too have met the family, and not just on that occasion I mentioned. It was the very first thing I did as Minister. I met them subsequently and I know how difficult and traumatic this is for them. I know they never want anybody else to go through that. The death and the murder of any individual is traumatic enough but for this to happen to somebody who is tasked with protecting each and every one of us is reprehensible. We all agree on that. I do not think anything we can do will ever take that away from the family.

It is very clear that we have a number of different investigations and processes still under way. That might not suit what people want to say here today but that is a fact. It is the case. There is an obligation on each and every one of us to make sure that any independent investigation is adhered to. Beyond that, and the Taoiseach asked this question yesterday, we must ask ourselves what do we want to do and how do we respond. We have an opportunity to review the legislation to make sure it is acting in accordance but we have to make sure any independent process that is under way is allowed to continue. It might take longer than any of us would like, as is the case in many instances, but we have an obligation to ensure any process under way is allowed to conclude.

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