I draw to the attention of the witnesses that when giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means they have a full defence in any defamation action in respect of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed at the Chair's discretion to cease giving evidence on any issue. They should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, insofar as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to the constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Today's meeting is to discuss the collection of farm plastics. I welcome the following witnesses from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment: Ms Bernie Kiely, principal officer; and Ms Danielle McCormack, assistant principal officer. We will also hear from the following witnesses from the Irish Farm Film Producers Group, IFFPG: Mr. Tom Dunne, chairperson; Mr. Liam Moloney, general manager; and Ms Geraldine O'Sullivan, co-secretary and director. Cuirim fáilte rompu go léir.

Copies of the witnesses' opening statements have been circulated to members but we will allow five minutes for opening comments, after which there will be an opportunity for questions and answers.

Since this is only one session, I propose that we take extra time for each speaker slot of ten minutes -----

Can the Chair let us back in?

If we do the ten minutes, then there is an opportunity for a second round of questions. I will not be excluding members. I want to give people the opportunity to ask as many questions as they feel appropriate and we will use the full time on it. Are members okay with that? Okay.

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to be here this afternoon to talk about farm plastics. One of the Department’s functions in relation to waste management is to set the policy and legislative framework for the extended producer responsibility, EPR, model in Ireland across the various waste streams. Ireland uses the EPR model for dealing with a number of waste streams, including farm plastics, tyres, end of life vehicles, packaging, electrical equipment and batteries. These schemes have been developed based on the producer pays principle. This is where producers have responsibility to finance the collection and environmentally sound management of their products at end of life. To date, these schemes have operated successfully and have assisted Ireland in reaching its domestic and EU recycling targets. Producer responsibility schemes operate under ministerial approval. The Department has oversight of the ministerial approval. Day-to-day operational matters are the responsibility of the schemes.

Ireland is one of a few countries in Europe to have introduced legislation specifically designed to promote the recycling of farm plastics. This legislation places a legal responsibility on producers of farm film products to specifically support recycling. The options open to producers placing farm film products on the Irish market are to either become directly involved in the recycling of farm plastics waste and operating a deposit and return scheme or to participate in an approved farm plastics recycling scheme. To date, producers have opted to meet their obligations in this respect by becoming members of a compliance scheme.

Under the legislation, the Irish Farm Film Producers Group Limited, IFFPG, operates further to an approval granted by the Minister as the national farm plastics recycling scheme. IFFPG has been doing so since 1998. The company is a not-for-profit body, which is owned by its producer members and the Irish Farmers’ Association. IFFPG’s current approval is due to expire at the end of 2025. It is open to producers to establish an alternative scheme at any time and seek ministerial approval under the regulations, should they wish to do so. The Department is not aware of interest by other groups in applying for ministerial approval.

Under the approved scheme, producers pay a producer recycling contribution to IFFPG based on the quantity of product they place on the market. The recycling contribution applies to all product based on the Irish market and, along with a collection fee for farmers set by IFFPG, is used to fund the collection, transportation and treatment of farm plastics. The role of the Department is oversight of IFFPG’s adherence to the terms of its approval. A mid-term review of IFFPG’s current approval was concluded in 2024 and the Department requested IFFPG to undertake a series of actions relating to the board, the contingency fund and enforcement matters. The Department is satisfied that IFFPG is engaging positively with the outcomes of the review and we continue to monitor same to ensure that the requirements set by it are fully implemented.

IFFPG is performing well in relation to its record of collection and recycling of farm plastic as set out in its annual report published on its website. The Department is supportive of IFFPG’s contribution to the environmental management of farm plastics.

Thank you.

There was also a letter - a reply from the Minister - issued earlier today that came to the committee. I am not sure whether the Chair received that.

It is received.

Okay. If anybody needs to know what was in the letter, I am happy to -----

We will be dealing with that under correspondence later.

Okay.

We need to know what was in the letter.

We would typically be getting our correspondence on Friday and we would deal with it the fortnight after.

That letter could influence proceedings here this evening.

I have not seen it. We have received it but I have not seen it.

Will Ms Kiely read it into the record now?

I second that.

One moment.

With Ms Kiely's agreement and that of the Chair, she can read it into the record of this meeting, as I think it may be relevant. We do not want to waste anyone's time. It would be Ms Kiely's decision and we would not be forcing anyone to do anything. If Ms Kiely and the Chair are agreeable, I think we should have it read into the record of the meeting now.

I support that. Agreed.

I am happy to read the body of the letter, subject to the official receipt of the letter through the committee.

Cathaoirleach,

Thank you for your correspondence of 16 October 2025 in relation to the performance of Irish Farm Film Producers Group (IFFPG), which operates the waste farm plastics extended producer responsibility scheme under Ministerial Approval. I note that IFFPG and officials from the Department accepted the invitation to appear before your committee on 12 November. My response to your specific queries is set out below.

Mid-Term Review

As you are aware from correspondence issued to the Committee on 12 September 2025, IFFPG was provided with a list of recommendations further to the conclusion of the Mid-Term Review. The Department has been monitoring compliance with these recommendations and while it continues to prove challenging to build up the Contingency Fund, IFFPG has been engaging positively and constructively with all recommendations and I have provided an update on some key areas below.

- Annual training is being provided to IFFPG board members to support discharge of their functions. A comprehensive presentation to the board from its solicitor was delivered in May 2025.

- IFFPG has agreed an enforcement protocol with the Waste Enforcement Regional Lead Authorities (WERLAs), with an initial focus on targeting non-compliant retailers in the border region.

- IFFPG is developing an enforcement portal which is expected to be operational by the end of the year.

- IFFPG has approved scrutiny of product codes presented by farmers at bring centres.

- IFFPG has been successfully addressing the storage of legacy farm plastic waste at its contracted sites, and this is being monitored on a monthly basis by the WERLAs.

Contingency fund

IFFPG commissioned a business review of its operations, which was undertaken by IFAC. This was completed in March 2025 and makes recommendations across IFFPG’s areas of operation in the context of its challenging operational environment. As the report was commissioned by IFFPG, I have requested the group to provide you with the report.

Contract

The Waste Management (Farm Plastics) Regulations, 2001, state that a producer of farm plastics may self-comply with the Regulations by operating a deposit and return scheme, or they may join a collective compliance scheme to discharge their responsibilities under the Regulations. Any organisation representing producers may apply for approval to operate a scheme at any time, and once all required information has been provided, the application will be considered by the Department. A key issue for any producer responsibility organisation is support from industry, and therefore, it is a matter for the sector to initiate any such application.

IFFPG submitted its application for a further Ministerial Approval under the Waste Farm Plastics Regulations in July 2025.

I trust the above addresses the concerns of the Committee.

Yours sincerely,

Alan Dillon TD, Minister of State with responsibility for Circular Economy at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment

Just to clarify a point. Correspondence was issued on 12 November, which is today. It was to an email address: "JCAM". That is not the committee. The committee has not had an opportunity to consider it. The information within it is available.

It is now on the record.

Yes, and it will be made available to the committee and discussed in due course. We will move on to the second submission.

We are very happy to be here today. We have circulated an opening statement and the independent IFAC review of the scheme, which was carried out earlier this year. I am going to give a quick verbal overview of the opening statement to provide an idea of who we are, where we are coming from and what are currently focused on.

We were one of the first EPR schemes established in the country. We were established in 1998 by the key stakeholders, namely, the farm plastic producers, the companies that put farm plastic products on the market, and the IFA. As the committee has heard already, we are licensed for five-year periods by the Department of the environment. We are a not-for-profit company and our focus is on providing a comprehensive collection service to farmers and to exceed the national recycling targets as set by the Department of the environment for farm plastic waste. Our board is representative of the key stakeholders, the farm plastic producers and the IFA, as well as some independent directors. We are funded primarily by the recycling levy but also by a weight-based collection charge. That encourages farmers to bring in cleaner plastics to the bring centres.

As far as collecting the plastic goes, we collect through a network of approved contractors. They are selected following an open national tendering process that is typically held every five years. The most recent one was concluded at the beginning of this year and we currently have five approved contractors.

When it comes to results, what the scheme has achieved is hugely impressive by any standard. We have 100,000 farmer customers, so the vast majority of farmers in Ireland are engaging with the service. They engage with the service because it is convenient, cost effective and, above all, reliable. We are collecting and recycling virtually all plastic that is being put on the market by our members. We have a virtual 100% recycling rate. There is no other waste plastic stream in the country that comes anywhere close to this.

Everything has not been easy, however, in recent years. We have had to deal with a very difficult recycling market situation. That has come about because of global events such as war in Ukraine, Covid and, before that, a decision by the Chinese to stop importing plastic waste. That has resulted in a 600% increase in the cost of recycling farm plastics in the last six or seven years. It has been a difficult operating environment, but I am pleased to say that we have worked our way through financial and storage pressures that were there over the last few years and are in a very good space now. If members have not had an opportunity to do so already, I recommend they look at the IFAC independent review, particularly the executive summary, which highlights how difficult the recycling market was. Not only did we navigate our way through that difficult market but we continued to achieve record recycling levels. However, we are aware there are no grounds for complacency. The current geopolitical situation is very uncertain, so we have to stay alert and agile to deal with anything else that comes our way.

I thank the committee for the invitation today and we look forward to engaging with members in a constructive discussion.

The IFAC report has been circulated to members. It will not be included in the minutes of the meeting but it will be published as part of any of the correspondence that would be available to members, along with the opening statement. I have seven speakers offering. Deputy Fitzmaurice has ten minutes.

I will do quick-fire questions, to Ms Kiely first. The Department is reviewing a licence renewal at the moment. I presume she knows off the top of her head the amount of plastic that is lying in yards around the country. What tonnage is it?

It is a moving target, if you like. It is monitored by the enforcement-----

Most of the plastic is gathered now, so let us be honest. What are the figures around Ireland at the moment, in all the different yards, before the Department gives out a licence?

I will defer to the scheme on that. We are not operating-----

Sorry, you are the Department, you give out licences. Obviously the Department would have an independent assessor going around checking that up, so what is the tonnage?

We are not deciding the licence today.

What?

We are not deciding the licence today.

I know that. I asked what is the tonnage today. Obviously the Department has an up-to-date account of it.

I can give the Deputy the last figures I have. At the end of September we were advised that there was approximately 24,440 tonnes of farm plastics stored at contractors' yards.

Is that advised by somebody else or does the Department have its own independent person who looks?

In the first instance, the IFFPG gives us information and that is verified with the-----

Yes I understand that but does the Department have its own independent assessor?

The waste enforcement regional lead authority, WERLA is there, which is the local authority enforcement body. They verify on a monthly basis.

They have a person who goes out to each yard and they know the accurate tonnage. They have a QS who is able to assess it. Is that right?

They go out if they need to go out, or-----

Are those figures available to this committee where each person went out to different yards and assessed the tonnage?

We can get that kind of information for the Deputy if he likes.

Okay. At the moment I am aware there is an investigation from Europe into plastics in Ireland. Is the Department aware of that?

We are aware of that but we are not party to it.

Has the Department to do any correspondence on that?

Not now. I do not think we have either. We have not provided any input into it.

There are 24,000 tonnes around the country, going by what Ms Kiely is saying. My next question is to IFFPG. Where does most of its plastic go at the moment?

Our plastic is going to a combination of Irish and European facilities.

What are the European facilities? Is that Cedo?

Cedo is actually in the process of-----

Is Mr. Moloney aware that Cedo is now closed or closing?

It is in the process of relocating to another facility elsewhere, that is right. It is relocating at the moment.

Will that cause a problem?

We would prefer if it were open but we can manage it. We have enough recycling capacity elsewhere.

What percentage is recycled in Ireland in tonnage?

It is 50:50, so last year around 50% was-----

What is 50%? Give me tonnage.

That was 20,000 tonnes. We recycled 40,000 tonnes last year and half was recycled in Ireland.

Were 40,000 tonnes recycled altogether?

Correct.

Of that, 20,000 tonnes was recycled in Ireland. There is one plant in Ireland that had 4,000 tonnes of a licence and looked for 20,000 tonnes last January. I understand Mr. Moloney's operation has sent plastic to it since. It was refused a licence. Does that worry Mr. Moloney?

I am not aware of any such action. We are supplying plastic just to permitted facilities and the facilities we are supplying to have permits at this time and point.

For running this business, going by the figures I am looking at, what does Mr. Moloney's business get paid for by the importers every year?

We charge companies that put plastic on the market in the first instance through the recycling levy.

How many tonnes come in that you get paid for?

It varies but it is in the region of 20,000 to 22,000 tonnes.

Then when it is going out, it is obviously twice as heavy.

Correct.

So that is 40,000 tonnes. So you would get €286 for the 22,000 tonnes and €120 for the 40,000 tonnes. Is that right?

That is correct.

A tonne is costing roughly around €500, would that be right?

The Deputy can add up the figures and see what it is costing at the moment. It is costing the €286 plus the €120 per tonne to recycle what we are recycling.

You will have twice as much tonnage then, going out, will you not?

There is twice as much tonnage, exactly.

So the €120 is €240 really.

Yes.

So €240 and €286 would be €526 a tonne, which is what it is costing the farmers. It is the farmers who are paying this.

Ultimately, yes.

It was €5 a roll. That is what we used to put it down as. It is actually costing something like €11 or €12 a roll now when we double it.

Excluding VAT, around €7.40 or €7.50.

That is when it comes in but when it goes out as well.

That is the price excluding VAT for the farmer when they buy the product, the hardware.

I am talking about when they get rid of it as well. It is costing about €12 a roll when you add it up

It could well be.

Maybe more, maybe €14.

The IFFPG is forward paid by the different companies. Is it this time of year they are paid?

Typically, we are paid from May onwards.

For the amount of tonnage around the country, what financial lump has the group in the kitty? If there is 24,000 tonnes, is the IFFPG paid now for next year's import part?

No. Next year, when the product goes on the market, we will get the money for next year. We are in a very good financial position at the moment and well capable of covering the recession cost of everything that we have in storage.

What is that?

Is the Deputy asking how much is in storage at the moment?

No, I am asking about the group's financial position. What is the financial back-up?

If the Deputy was to look at our reserve, which is total assets minus liabilities, we would probably-----

I am talking about cash and cash is needed to get rid of plastic.

Yes. We would have at the moment not far off €3 million.

Going by what I am looking at, if there is 24,000 tonnes around the country and the charge is €125 a tonne, will that get rid of plastic at the moment?

It would.

Will it?

We are going to get more money coming through in the new year as well.

If €125 a tonne gets rid of plastic, which means €3 million will get rid of 24,000 tonnes. So why are farmers paying €540 a tonne?

Maybe the Deputy did not get a chance to look at our audited accounts, which are published on our website. The accounts show the amount of money that we need, that we bring in and what we spend. At the moment we are generating a surplus and we feel very comfortable that we have enough money.

Can you square that circle for me? Mr. Moloney has said that the IFFPG can get rid of the plastic at the moment at a cost of €125 a tonne.

This is what the Deputy is saying, yes.

No, Mr. Moloney is saying that.

No.

Mr. Moloney has said that his group has €3 million in its account. At the moment it has been stated that there are 24,440 tonnes of plastic around Ireland. If every bit of that plastic is got rid of, Mr. Moloney has said that his group is financially solvent, and if I calculate the figure rough in my head then it costs €125 a tonne to get rid of every bit of the plastic if the group has €3 million in its account. That is what Mr. Moloney is saying his group can rid of the plastic for but I am saying that farmers, between what they are paying coming in and going out, is paying €540. Where is the discrepancy? Either the group has not a heap of money in the bank or there is a link missing.

There is no discrepancy and there is no link missing. If the Deputy looks at our accounts for last year he will see that we-----

I am not questioning the accounts but the figures in terms of what Mr. Moloney has said.

I can only speak in aggregate terms. At the end of this year, we will have collected and recycled in the region of 40,000 tonnes and we will expect to still have €2.5 million to €3 million in the bank, and more money will be coming in in the new year. By the end of this year we would expect to have no more than, maybe, 14,000 or 15,000 tonnes in the yards.

If there is a problem with Cedo in Holland, which is my understanding from everything that I have read, it means 20,000 tonnes is in a bit of jeopardy at the moment., is it?

We were not quite sending them that much but we are working hard at the moment and putting in place notifications to supply to other recyclers in Europe. We expect some of those notifications to come through quite shortly. Indeed, when Cedo relocates to another location we will also supply to it at that new location.

Is it fair to say the IFFPG sends plastic to different plants in Ireland?

Yes.

How many?

At the moment, three.

They are recycling plants.

Yes.

If there was a problem, does the Department watch where the plastic goes? If there was a problem with planning, would the Department be concerned?

If we are notified by the enforcement authority of the local authority or the EPA, of course that would be a matter of concern.

If notified.

Yes.

On contracts, is the Department open to different operators submitting a proposal in smaller scale around the country? What is the story with that?

If the producers of the plastics, who put the products on the market, come forward with their proposal we will look at it of course.

Hold on now. Ms Kiely said, "the producers of the plastics". With all due respect, they do not produce plastic. They gather it. The producers are the crowds that make it or import it. Is that who Ms Kiely is saying has to make an application?

The people who place the plastic on the market in Ireland, whether they produce it or retail it here as the first people to place it on the market.

Is that closed to just them? With due respect, the IFFPG does not place plastic on the market in Ireland. Are there different rules for different folks?

No. The members of the IFFPG, please correct me if I am wrong, are producers of plastic.

So what the IFFPG is saying is that the importers are members of IFFPG. That is grand.

The next speaker listed is Senator Boyhan but Deputy Cleere is here.

The IFFPG has operated as the approved body since 1998 and its approval is reviewed on an ongoing five-yearly basis. I also know that it is open to producers to establish an alternative scheme at any time. Is this advertised for alternative producers?

It is not advertised at any particular point in time. No more than for any material stream, we do not advertise.

Does that not sound funny? There is a contract awarded for five years. With any local authority contract, where there is a deal with somebody for five years there is a public consultation to see if anybody else wants to come in and bid and, maybe, do a better deal. Ms Kiely has said that the Department does not even advertise this. It is just tick a box every five years and away you go.

It is not a contract. When the regulations were made, back in the day, the obligation was placed on producers to put a scheme together. It was from that day forward that producers could approach the Department on any day of the week with a proposal. It just so happens that the proposal that came in is on its fifth-year anniversary.

Earlier Ms Kiely said that the Department is not aware of interest by other groups in applying for ministerial approval, but it is not advertised anywhere.

No, but producers are aware that they have an obligation to do that.

To be clinical, it is not advertised.

No.

That seems strange to me. On the financial elements of the operation, I note that there has been significant increases in both the levy and collection charges in recent years. Please indicate where they have come from and where they are now. So we know now it is €286 per tonne and €120 per tonne at the collection points. What was it five years ago?

That question is for the group.

In simple terms, the levy and collection charges have pretty much doubled in the last four or five years. That has been necessary to meet the huge increase in recycling costs associated with all the global events of which we are aware.

Are there financial incentives for farmers?

On the financial incentive in terms of the collection charge, because we charge by weight the farmer has an incentive to take out any pieces of contamination and we have made a lot of progress in that particular area. There is an incentive on that front.

Is there a cash or financial incentive?

No. Unfortunately, the plastic has a huge negative value and the scheme is very expensive to run. So we have to charge both the members and farmers at the current rates in order to wash our face.

Can introducing incentives for farmers be considered in the future?

In the past, when our finances were very flush, which was ten or 12 years ago, we reduced both the recycling levy and collection charges to farmers. If we should get into such a position again we would most certainly consider reducing both the levy and collection charges. We are a not-for-profit body but we must have a certain amount of funding in order to run ourselves.

I want to discuss the lack of infrastructure. I am a rural Deputy from Carlow-Kilkenny and sometimes there is a lack of infrastructure in areas. There are four providers. How many collection points are located around the country?

Typically, we run about 200 bring-centres so, on average, there are seven or eight bring-centres per county. Farmers can also drop the material into our contractors' yards and there is a farmyard collection service for farmers who prefer that service.

Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned that there is about 24,000 tonnes in storage at the moment.

Looking at the existing operators, their maximum capacity is less than 24,000 tonnes.

No, that would not be correct. Our contractors have a storage capacity of 45,000 tonnes. In recent years, a number of them have come through the planning process and the permit review process.

That contradictory to the IFAC report.

No, it is not. The IFAC report talks about it going up to 45,000 tonnes this year.

Page 36 of the IFAC report gives a breakdown per entity. The figures are 3,500 tonnes, ten tonnes, 2,100 tonnes and 10,000 tonnes.

Yes, but also if you-----

Is this out of date?

If you look at the detail of the IFAC report, you will also see that it expects capacity to go up to 45,000 tonnes by the end of this year. The capacity has actually already gone up to 45,000 tonnes.

That is not in this report, just to be very clear. It must be an older report. I just wanted to acknowledge that. Is there much plastic coming in from the North?

There is a problem with the illegal trade. Plastic is definitely coming down from the North. We have no statutory enforcement powers. We work with the local authorities and the WERLAs and do all we can to assist them but there is an issue with illegal plastic coming from the North.

Roughly how much, in tonnage terms?

It is impossible to quantify an illegal activity because there are no records. It could be 5% or 10%. It could be higher in the Border counties. There is a problem with illegal plastics. There always has been. All we can do is work to minimise it.

Let us say it is roughly 10%. If we bring in about 40 million tonnes, we would be looking at about 4 million tonnes, give or take, based on those mathematics.

Typically, there is 20,000 to 22,000 tonnes going on the market so 1,500 to 2,000 tonnes might be being lost, but it is impossible to say.

Okay, it is about 2,000 tonnes. On recycling in Ireland, 20,000 tonnes are done in Ireland and 20,000 abroad. What is the breakdown of that international side?

It typically goes to the UK or Holland. We are working to put notifications in place to supply to other countries such as Poland and Lithuania.

Why are we not doing it in Ireland?

At the moment, the maximum recycling capacity is 20,000 tonnes and we are meeting that demand from Irish recyclers. We are working with the Irish recyclers and encouraging them to expand. We would love for everything to be recycled in Ireland.

What kind of economic benefits do farm films bring to local rural economies? What kind of employment are we looking at?

We have five contractors who typically employ between five and ten people. There is some employment there. There are also three recyclers, who employ ten, 15 or 20 people each, so there is employment there as well. Our key role is to provide a service to farmers and to hit recycling targets, and we do that very well.

What kind of turnover was achieved last year in terms of farm payments and the tonnage that came through?

As a company, our turnover was approximately €10.5 million for the year.

Will Mr. Moloney say a little bit about regulatory challenges?

As the Deputy mentioned, there is an issue with illegal product coming down from the North. We work very hard with the county councils, which have the remit for enforcing farm plastics regulations, and with the WERLAs. We do all we can to identify potential illegal operators, bring them to the attention of authorities, and help in whatever way we can to close those operators and, ideally, to get a prosecution.

Is there a possibility of a compatible scheme being established in the North? There may be some cross-Border challenges. Has the IFFPG explored that area? Where is it in that regard?

One of the recommendations of the IFAC review was that we would explore that. We are in the early stages of exploring that with the Department. We are going to see what is possible there. It certainly would be a big help if there were a comparable scheme in Northern Ireland because it would reduce the price difference between the North and the Republic.

Is the Department satisfied that the IFFPG is engaging positively with the regulations?

Yes.

On the public awareness campaigns, I believe Mr. Moloney said there were 100,000 farmers engaged in this scheme. How many are not? Is it 20,000?

CSO figures suggest there might be 135,000 livestock farmers, but it must be borne in mind that some livestock farmers do not winter cattle and others winter only very small numbers of cattle and might get rid of their plastic in their wheelie bin. The overwhelming majority of farmers who are farming in any sort of serious way are engaging with the scheme.

What percentage of farmers are not engaging in the scheme?

The IFAC report identified that 77% of farmers are engaging with the scheme.

That means 23% are not. I am worried about this 23%. What are we doing to engage with this 23%? What educational programmes are in place? How are we getting at that 23%?

We are advertising as hard as we can through various media. We advertise in the Irish Farmers' Journal and on Agriland. We text message farmers and advertise through the IFA and Farm TV. We are interested in getting as many farmers as possible engaging with the scheme. The numbers are currently huge so there is already massive engagement, but we would like to see as many more as possible avail of our services.

That is fine. I thank Mr. Moloney very much.

I will have to tip off in a minute because I am going to speak on farm safety. Regarding the IFFPG, there is a levy on the purchase of farm plastic. Per roll, that is roughly €5 to €7. It is actually more now. With the new contractors and the new balers, there is no netting going on. A double layer of plastic goes on bales, which results in almost a third more plastic coming into the sector. Does Mr. Moloney accept that?

Netting is reducing. As the Senator is probably aware, we do collect netting as well. It is being replaced with net replacement film. There is still quite a volume of netting going on the market. The net replacement film is collected and recycled with the wrap and the sheeting. We collect the net replacement film as well.

It is collected with the plastic.

Exactly. It is collected with the wrap and the sheeting.

The IFFPG will therefore have seen an increase in tonnage in the last 12 months.

It is not so much determined by that. The increase is largely determined by the weather. If we have a very long winter, we will collect more plastic. If we have a very short winter, we will collect less plastic. The market itself is determined by the weather. If we have really good growth conditions, we see a big increase in plastic because more silage is made. If the weather is difficult, we see less silage made. The weather is the big determining factor. For the most part, the net replacement film is replacing netting, which is reducing.

Roughly the same amount of silage is made year on year.

It is approximately the same, yes.

What I am saying is that netting will reduce and plastic will increase.

Yes.

Mr. Moloney is telling me that the IFFPG is doing roughly 40,000 tonnes of recycling a year.

Yes.

That is going to increase in the next year or two by whatever percentage because there will be less netting and more plastic.

Yes.

That will come at a higher cost.

Yes, but it must be remembered that we will be collecting less netting. That will be compensated by the increase in net replacement film. One will largely cancel out the other.

The fee for the netting at the beginning is, let us say, €7 a roll. When the farmer brings it in for recycling, it is roughly €14 per tonne when it is weighed in. Does Mr. Moloney accept that?

The cost per tonne is €120. The minimum charge is €60 for a half tonne at the moment. They are the costs.

It is twice the weight.

It is twice the weight, yes.

What I am saying is that figure of 40,000 tonnes will be greater going forward.

It might be slightly more. For example-----

So-----

If I may make this point, we had a short winter, so collections are down 15% this year.

The plastic is still there.

It is and it is not.

It might not have been collected but it is still there on the farms.

Most farmers bring it out on a one-year cycle. Some do so on a two- or three-year cycle. On the Senator's point on net replacement film, all things being equal, it will slightly increase the amount we collect. The net replacement plastic is heavier than the netting but, as we collect more net replacement plastic, we collect less netting.

The cost is going to go up, therefore.

I do not see that as necessarily being the case.

The figures say that the IFFPG had roughly €3 million of a surplus.

We expect something like that at the year's end, yes.

That is 40,000 tonnes recycled.

It is 40,000 tonnes this year, yes.

If we break that down, it will be less than €125 a tonne.

It would make more sense to look at our accounts for last year. That would give the Senator the big picture and let him know how much we get in from the levy and from collection income and how much recycling we are collecting.

How much does the IFFPG get from the levy?

It is typically around €6 million a year.

How much does the IFA get from the levy?

The IFA does not get any money from the levy. Separately, the farmers pay a weight-based collection charge, which might make up another €4 million or €4.5 million. That is overall funding for the scheme.

If you want to look at a breakdown of our costs, between €9 million and €9.5 million is spent on collecting and recycling it, and a bit on administration.

There are five approved contractors at the moment.

That is right.

Is that adequate for the whole country?

I think it is adequate. To be honest, we would like to have more collectors, but it is hard to get people to engage with our tendering process because the business is niche and seasonal. We advertised our most recent national tendering process extensively but not a huge number of tenders were submitted. However, we can provide a good service, as we are currently doing with five collectors.

I am sure the five approved contractors would need to have EPA licences.

They would either have to have an EPA licence or a county council permit, and they are all properly permitted.

I return to the 24,000 tonnes that are already here. That is in yards.

Yes.

What will the cost be to recycle that at the moment?

The best way I can answer that without running figures in my head is to say that to recycle 40,000 tonnes this year, which is what we expect to recycle, will cost approximately €4.5 million. That is the easiest way I can answer that. To collect between 38,000 tonnes and 40,000 tonnes or whatever we intend to collect will probably cost another €4.5 million.

To collect 40,000 tonnes will cost how much?

It will probably cost another €4.5 million. Our operating costs will probably be between €9 million and €10 million depending on where the figures fall by the end of the year.

Some 24,000 tonnes at €125 per tonne comes in at €3 million.

I have not run the figure, but if that is what it comes to, yes.

If 24,000 tonnes at €125 per tonne costs €3 million, how is Mr. Moloney going to do 40,000 tonnes for €4 million?

Overall, all I can tell the Senator is that we will spend approximately €4 million this year.

It is not adding up.

It is adding up. The €125 per tonne was the Senator's figure, not our figure.

What is their figure?

Our figure would divide 40,000-----

No, what is their figure? Have they a price on it?

The only way I could give that figure is to divide €4.5 million by 40,000 and you will see the cost of recycling.

That is the net.

If the Senator is trying to find out if the scheme is financially stable, which is what I think he is coming at, this scheme is financially stable at the moment. We have enough money to do what we need to do and to put enough aside to satisfy the requirements of our approver. The Senator can rest assured that the scheme is financially stable. I cannot be running figures here in my head, but I can point him to our audited accounts from last year, which will give him all the detail with regard to what the company takes in from certain areas and spends in certain areas.

It is hard to accept that. Coming into a committee we should have figures in our heads. I go back to collaboration and the illegal tonnage coming across. Mr. Moloney stated approximately one third of it, is that correct?

No, we estimate between 5% and 10%, but we do not know for sure it is illegal activity. Between 5% and 10% of the market is perhaps lost to this illegal activity, but we do not know for sure.

How is that funded?

It is lost, it is illegally put on the market, and we have to fund our scheme with what is legally put on the market.

Is that in the 40,000 tonnes?

We do all we can when the material comes in at bring centres to check to see if the levy has been paid so we are working hard there and with the local authorities and the-----

Is it in the 40,000 tonnes they have estimated?

There may be some illegal product in there. I could not say for sure, but we are doing all we can to make sure there are checks in place at the bring centre when the farmer comes in to make sure he has paid the levy.

IFAC estimates up to 25%.

That was a possible figure, but we would say between 5% and 10%. They quoted various people they interviewed. Some said 25% and some said different figures. Our feeling is that it is between 5% and 10% of the market.

Is the 5% or 10% included in the 40,000 tonnes in this year's estimate?

Some illegal product and plastic might make its way into our bring centres despite our best efforts. I cannot say for sure.

Mr. Moloney gave me a figure there.

Yes.

It is either in the figure or it is not. Is it in it?

If a farmer buys illegal product and is in some way able to trick us into thinking that he paid the levy, that plastic may end up at our bring centre.