No apologies have been received. Before we begin, I bring to everyone's attention the fact that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's discretion. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against any person outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in this committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in public meetings from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed.

The agenda for today's meeting is an engagement with the chairman of Bord Bia. Cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. Larry Murrin. He is accompanied by three Bord Bia officials, who are also very welcome: Mr. Jim O'Toole, Mr. John Murray, director of sectors, and Ms Deirdre Ryan, director of Origin Green. Questions should be directed to Mr. Murrin, the chair of Bord Bia, and not to the others who are with him.

The topic of today's meeting is the potential loss of confidence in the Irish beef sector. We are grateful to Mr. Murrin, the chair of Bord Bia, for attending voluntarily in response to our invitation. I remind members that in accordance with the Supreme Court judgment we must remain within our remit and within the scope of the invitation. We do not have the authority to inquire into affairs of any other party, including Mr. Murrin and Dawn Meats. However, as there has been controversy surrounding Dawn Meats, Mr. Murrin may take the opportunity to present his side of the matter. Members are entitled to ask reasonable questions arising from the opening statement but this cannot become an investigation of Mr. Murrin or the business affairs of Dawn Meats. I will intervene if I feel that members' questions are outside the permitted parameters. I repeat that Mr. Murrin has attended voluntarily and is not obliged to answer questions, even if they have not been ruled out of order. The invitation was issued last week and the witness has forgone his ten-day notice, so the meeting is taking place sooner than would otherwise be the case.

Mr. Murrin's opening statement has been circulated. There is a great deal of interest and members want to ask questions. I will give him an opportunity to read his statement and we will follow on from there with questions and answers.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. Before proceeding with that, I would like to make a small correction to the record. The company that I represent is Dawn Farms, not Dawn Meats. Dawn Meats is what I would describe as a first-cousin company. It is a completely separate entity and is led by Niall Browne. I do not want to confuse the issue. I am the CEO of Dawn Farm Foods, which is located in Naas. I am sorry for making that small correction, but it is important because Dawn Meats was mentioned three or four times here and in a number of newspaper articles. Is that okay?

It is noted.

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to address them today. I appreciate the opportunity to meet the committee and I welcome this respectful dialogue. I want to say clearly at the outset that I have enormous respect for Irish farmers. I am the son of a farmer from County Meath. Farming shaped my values, my work ethic and my understanding of markets. Today, many part-time farmers work across my business at every level of the organisation, and my company is fundamentally connected to Irish agriculture - economically, socially and personally. Since this matter was first raised, I have taken it very seriously. I understand the frustration being expressed by farmers and I fully respect their right to voice concern. However, I do not support the behaviour of Irish Farmers' Association, IFA. members occupying Bord Bia's reception in recent days. It is also important to clarify my role as chair of Bord Bia. It is a non-executive position.

As chair, I do not manage day-to-day operations, run quality assurance programmes or manage the organisation. That is the remit of Mr. Jim O'Toole, the CEO, who is the gentleman on my left. It is the role of the CEO and the executive leadership team. I applied for this role because I bring the perspective of international markets and global customers, experience that matters for an export-led organisation such as Bord Bia.

I co-founded Dawn Farm Foods in 1985 with the Queally family of Waterford, one of Ireland's finest farming families. Members will know the other enterprises that have been developed by the Queallys over the years. Today, Dawn Farms employs 1,400 people, 700 of whom are based at our headquarters in Naas, County Kildare. We are the largest cooked meat ingredients company in Europe, with manufacturing operations in Ireland, the UK and Germany, supplying customers in 55 countries worldwide. Since 2020 alone, our economic impact in Ireland is in excess of €1 billion and the majority of that represents Irish-sourced raw materials, wages and services.

It is important to clarify that Dawn Farms does not kill cattle or produce beef. In fact, we are a major customer of Irish beef producers. We specialise in customised cooked meat products for our clients. That is an easy sentence to say but perhaps it is difficult to understand. Think pizza, sandwiches, ready meals, recipe dishes, and think every major restaurant chain on the high street across Europe. I can guarantee everyone on this committee who has enjoyed any of those products in any of the places we serve that they have almost certainly consumed products supplied by Dawn Farms in Naas at some point in time.

I have stated publicly that over 80% of our business is conducted with just 12 global customers, relationships that span more than 30 years. The bedrock of these commercial relationships is commercial confidentiality. I acknowledge that Ireland's beef production is 700% self-sufficient, with over 90% exported, but this matter is not about self-sufficiency. I would like to clarify for everyone what is meant by security of supply and the role of being a partner within the supply chain to a major international customer. Dawn Farms serves as the preferred supplier of cooked meat ingredients for many major international food brands. This arrangement has presented an excellent opportunity for Ireland for more than three decades, enabling large quantities of Irish beef and other Irish food products to reach overseas markets.

However, as part of our agreement, many of our customers require the following. In the event of a food crisis - I can well imagine and know what that feels like - or a disease outbreak, which I am sure we can all imagine, or a supply disruption anywhere in Europe, Dawn Farms must be agile and able to activate a supply of beef or any other raw material from different sources. That activation must be proven, real and practised. If it is only on paper, it is not worth the paper it is written on. This also includes another concept that may be difficult to understand, namely, dual manufacturing capability. The reason is straightforward. We are a global food business whose products are consumed by between 40 million and 50 million consumers per week in the markets we serve. We must always ensure continuous food supply to our customers, no matter what the circumstance. Otherwise, we cannot enjoy the trust and confidence those customers place in us by vesting their business with us over long periods.

Transparent labelling has been raised. I want to talk about how it has been reported. Dawn Farms imported less than 1% of its beef from Brazil in 2025 to meet a requirement of contingency planning. Sourcing a small quantity outside Ireland does not diminish our commitment to Irish beef or Irish farmers. It is for us a necessity that underpins our business. Our labelling has always been transparent. The origins of this story trace back to a photograph shared on social media showing a clearly labelled supply chain. This has since been described as a "revelation", when in fact it reflects long-standing and transparent practice by Dawn Farms and the customer concerned. In 2025, Ireland exported approximately €19 billion worth of food and drink to 180 markets. Almost 50% of those exports, or €9 billion, depend on imported ingredients. This reflects the practical reality of our export-led food and drink sector in today's global marketplace.

There has been a misperception of conflict of interest and I would like to make some comments about that, as it at the genesis of this issue. The IFA alleged that I was fundamentally conflicted in undertaking my duties as chair of Bord Bia-----

The IFA is not in a position to defend itself at today's meeting.

I understand that. A farming organisation alleged that I was fundamentally conflicted in undertaking my duties as chair of Bord Bia because the company of which I am CEO, Dawn Farms, had sourced beef from Brazil to meet our contingency planning and supply chain commitments to customers. The charge is that it is incompatible for me to chair Bord Bia while being involved with Dawn Farms. To be clear, I have never been conflicted in undertaking my role as chair of Bord Bia, which is to lead the board and ensure its effectiveness. I have spent my entire working life advocating on behalf of Irish food, drink and agriculture in global markets in the best interests of Ireland. I have spent every week since assuming the chair of Bord Bia doing likewise. That will not change.

I want to address quality assurance. Bord Bia operates voluntary quality assurance schemes that benefit farmers and underpin Ireland's reputation. It is completely incorrect to suggest that Dawn Farms promotes products containing non-Irish beef under the Bord Bia quality mark. Those claims are false and have caused damage. There are customers of the Irish agrifood sector looking at these proceedings today.

I wish to refer to the importance of dialogue. On Thursday, 22 January, a Bord Bia board meeting was held, and all perspectives were heard. This meeting was called to have a discussion about an issue that had arisen on social media in the previous days. A majority of the board supported me to remain as chair, and this was subsequently affirmed by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is important also to say that the support was not unanimous. I acknowledge that both the IFA and the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, ICMSA, did not agree. From the outset, I have sought dialogue and engagement, and that remains my position. At the board meeting, I offered to meet with the IFA national council and alternative pathways were proposed. These were rejected in favour of a single demanded outcome. It was presented as an ultimatum to me and the board, and I do not do ultimatums, unless they come from my wife.

I know that the committee will appreciate that. This has the potential to be deeply damaging to our industry and risks creating the impression that Irish farmers and exporters are not open for business. I believe respectful dialogue is the only way forward. This should not be about winners or losers. I remain fully committed to acting in the long-term interests of Irish farmers, Bord Bia and the Irish agrifood sector as a whole. I thank the Chair and committee members.

I thank Mr. Murrin. There has been quite a bit of anxiety among members and farmers about the issue. We want to try to get to the bottom of this as much as we can. I propose that there be eight minutes for members' questions and answers. We are due to have a sos at 1.45 p.m. that is, one hour and 15 minutes from the starting time of the committee. We will resume with eight minutes per member and the remaining time available for additional members who have come in.

Mr. Murrin is welcome. I would like to welcome the representatives farm organisations. He is quite correct. Dialogue is the only way we will resolve what has happened over the past number of weeks. He can see the frustration in farmers throughout Ireland about what has happened. I am a farmer and a proud member of Bord Bia. He will understand the loopholes we have to jump through every time there is an inspection to remain quality assured under Bord Bia. He knows about the stress involved in remaining a member of Bord Bia. Without farmers, Bord Bia would not exist. Does Mr. Murrin accept that?

I believe that the farming community is one of the foundation stones of Bord Bia. Bord Bia has a wide remit. I will speak about that later.

Without farmers, it certainly would not exist. Is that correct?

This is a wide-ranging point. Bord Bia and the Irish farming community work hand in hand. I will speak about that-----

Bord Bia was formed to promote Irish goods in the European market and abroad. Is that correct?

Bord Bia was formed in 1995. It took over the mandate previously held by another semi-State organisation, Córas Beostoic agus Feola. It has a very wide remit to promote all Irish agrifood production and manufacturers in Ireland.

That are produced by farmers.

A lot of the raw materials concerned are produced by farmers. They are fundamental to it.

Mr. Murrin referred to fallbacks, safeguards and ensuring supply, and to a figure of 1% in respect of Brazilian beef supplied to Dawn Farm Foods. How did that produce come in? Did it come in under a serial number?

Could the Senator explain the question perhaps a little more-----

When beef comes in from Brazil or-----

Without going into the ins and outs of the operation of the company.

Of course. I want to know how that meat comes into the country. Brazil and those countries does not meet the same traceability standards as we do. It does not have a tagging system. How does the meat come into this country? Does it come in under a serial number? When a consignment comes in, what number does it come in under? Is the origin of the meat labelled as Brazilian?

Yes, typically of course.

It comes in with a serial number on it.

Yes. All agricultural produce that comes into this country comes in under EU and Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine licence conditions.

Has Mr. Murrin ever taken part in a Bord Bia trade mission, not as the chair?

Yes.

On trade missions, Mr. Murrin met consumers or companies abroad who want to deal with companies in this country. Is that correct?

Of course, yes. To add to that, Dawn Farm Foods has participated in practically every major food show in Europe that Bord Bia has been part of since the day it was founded.

Roughly how many tonnes of beef came in in 2025?

I am already on record as saying it formed less than 1%.

I am asking about tonnes. I am not asking about the percentage because a percentage can mean anything. Tonne is how we know carcass kills out as. I ask for a rough tonnage.

As I said in my opening statement, Dawn Farm Foods is a privately owned organisation and that is commercially sensitive information. Less than 1% of our supply last year came from Brazil.

I am asking about tonnes. I ask for a rough figure. A percentage figure confuses farmers. We deal in-----

Mr. Murrin has answered that it is commercially sensitive information.

It is commercially sensitive for everybody.

I will go back to Irish quality food and drinks. The diamond taste award, Bord Bia quality mark and Irish food awards are all symbols that appear on what is 100% Irish produced food, slaughtered in Ireland and with, for example, an IE 300 EU code. Is that correct?

Yes.

When food is labelled as being cut in Ireland, that means it has been processed here too. Is that correct?

I am sorry. When it has on it-----

Some packaging states "slaughtered in Ireland" and "cut in Ireland". It carries an IE 300 EU code.

We are a cooked meat producer.

I understand that.

I know that. Did the Senator say "cooked" or "cut"?

The labels that state "cut" not "cooked"?

That does not apply to any products that Dawn Farm Foods produces.

It would source it from these companies. Is that correct?

I am sorry; I do not understand the relevance of the question.

Dawn Farm foods buys a raw product from other companies in Ireland.

There are two questions there. It is important to say that Dawn Farm Foods does not supply anything on a business to consumer basis in Ireland. We are a business to business company. We specialise in customised cooked meat ingredients. When I say "customised", it means that the product is unique to that customer. We have very few generic products and we do not sell anything through retail channels whatsoever.

Can Mr. Murrin provide company evidence to clarify that the amount of imports and exports-----

We need to move on.

Is that possible?

I welcome the witnesses and the representatives of the farming organisations have taken the time to come to this committee today. Like many of my colleagues, over the past number of days and weeks I have spoken to dozens of farmers in Carlow-Kilkenny, where I am from, and around the country regarding this specific issue.

To say that they are angry and hurt and frustrated would be an understatement. As we all know in this room, Irish farmers are world-class leaders in food produce, and the food standards are to the highest standards in the world. We all also know that Bord Bia is the quality assurance side of the arm. Mr. Murrin as CEO is entitled to run his private enterprise, Dawn Farm Foods, in whatever way he wants. That is absolutely at his discretion as CEO. It is very successful. He has 1,400 employees and 700 are based in east Kildare, and that is fine. Where it gets conflated or where it gets hazy is where, on one side, he has this private enterprise that is running the way he wants it to run and, on the other side, he is chair of an organisation, Bord Bia, which has responsibility for promoting and marketing Irish beef on the international stage. Can Mr. Murrin allay farmers' fears as to where that is not a conflict? To me, it has to be a conflict. Mr. Murrin might talk about that.

Some 50% of all of Ireland's exports are generated by products that contain and rely upon foreign or externally made ingredients.

As the chair of Bord Bia, however, can Mr. Murrin see how this could be interpreted as being a conflict? If he is the chair of Bord Bia and then he has a private enterprise, which he is entitled to run whatever way he wants, can he not see how farmers could be really frustrated and upset and hurt over that? They are held to the highest standards in the world, producing top-quality foodstuffs, and then there is an inferior product coming in from a different country and the chair of Bord Bia is, in essence, on both sides?

I understand the Deputy's question. First of all, I am completely reconciled that there is no conflict incompatibility whatsoever.

Mr. Murrin is reconciled. For himself, I get that, but could he see how-----

I came here today----

No, I understand.

I came here today under invitation to have the dialogue with the committee and its members and the observers in the Gallery, all of whom I have the greatest respect for.

I can appreciate that, but I am bound by the clock and there are other speakers who wish to come in. I understand that Mr. Murrin said he is reconciled. Can he understand how farmers out there see a conflict here?

I am here to give background and dialogue to that. Can I explain? Nothing wrong has happened here - nothing underhanded, nothing illegal. There is nothing in any way dark about it. Our business model in Dawn Farm Foods is well known and recognised by every Government stakeholder that is out there and has been since the day the business started in business 40 years ago. We cannot create Fortress Ireland here. We rely on being able to satisfy the needs of our foreign global customers.

Can Mr. Murrin understand that this issue is undermining farmers' confidence?

I understand how it has become an issue significantly driven by, I understand, social media, but I have to say, I am not an observer or follower of social media. I can understand, therefore, how it has been driven by that. I have huge empathy for the farming community across Ireland, and I have spent my entire life advocating for all the benefits that Irish food and agribusiness can bring.

Mr. Murrin said in his opening statement that Dawn Farms imported less than 1% of its beef from Brazil in 2025. Would he be able to provide a breakdown of what countries he imports beef from? I know it is less than 1% from Brazil. Where does the rest of it come from and what percentage?

A significant proportion of it comes from this very country. Some of it comes from the UK and the rest comes from Europe. However, a majority comes from Ireland.

Over 50%?

Well over 50%. That is all I am prepared to say. I will just go back to the €1 billion of economic value back to the Irish economy since 2020 alone. That is how I describe our value back to the Irish economy in raw materials substantially, followed by wages and services.

Does Mr. Murrin source any poultry or pigmeat from Brazil?

We do source some poultry. We do not-----

What percentage?

We do not source any pigmeat.

What percentage of poultry?

To be clear, I have been asked this question through media channels. I chose not to answer because I thought today was the right place to answer that question, with respect. As I understand it, Ireland, in poultry terms, is about 70% self-sufficient. Of that 70%, the poultry industry here in Ireland exports about 25% of what it produces. These are based on Central Statistics Office figures.

What percentage does Mr. Murrin import?

I will come to that.

I am just conscious of time. I have only one minute left, so perhaps Mr. Murrin could answer.

I am happy to complete the answer.

Okay.

Ireland then imports about 120,000 tonnes or more of poultry to satisfy local demand. I should explain that most of the poultry that Ireland exports, and this, again, is based on anecdotal evidence, is what I would call dark meat or drumsticks and that kind of product. We are a buyer of principally only white meat. Most of the 120,000-plus tonnes that come into Ireland-----

I have 20 seconds left. What percentage?

Most of the product that comes into Ireland is white meat. We import or are accountable for between 7% and 10% of that.

Of the white meat.

Of the white meat that comes in.

Excellent job-----

The rest is in free distribution to all sorts of channels around the country.

Excellent job talking down the clock.

Mr. Murrin is welcome. On websites Mr. Murrin is involved in, say, with Dawn Farm Foods, he talks about the farm to fork strategy, which is very important. How can he be sure about farm to fork with products from Brazil?

We employ in excess of 20 food safety and quality assurance experts in Naas. We have stringent conditions that way exceed national norms in terms of traceability and the farm to fork aspect of it insofar as the raw material is concerned.

I understand that. He could have 40 or 100 experts in Naas. Would Mr. Murrin agree that cattle are not tagged in Brazil for ten months?

I am aware of that.

Would he agree that there is a problem in hormones? Would he agree that there is a problem in medicines? Why pick Brazil as the country when there is such confusion and such worry among consumers, especially for Mr. Murrin's business and especially for consumers in Ireland when we see that hormonal beef has come in? Why pick that country rather than New Zealand or some other country as a backup? Why pick Brazil-----

Brazil-----

-----when he sees the traceability problem?

I want to be perfectly clear. I thank the Deputy for his question. I am not a champion for Brazil. I want to make that perfectly clear today. However, Brazil is the largest exporter of beef in the world today. Our global customers look at commodity markets globally. I have to be able to demonstrate, as part of Irish supply chain security arrangements, that this country can access those raw materials if it needs to. That is-----

Mr. Murrin is telling me there is no other country in the world that can give him that?

Southern-----

Is he telling me that New Zealand or Australia or some other country cannot? When Mr. Murrin says he is not an advocate for Brazil, he would have had interests in it in 2008 or 2010 and been involved in companies there, would he not?

There are a couple of questions there and I thank the Deputy for them.

It is customer stipulation that we must be active in the supply chains we have access to and it must be practised. There is no point in it being written down on a piece of paper.

In fairness, the witness might answer one thing for me. Here in Ireland, with Bord Bia's help and the great systems and farmers, if Michael Fitzmaurice has a bullock or a heifer, it is traced from the day it is tagged to the day it is killed, and to the person who eats it in the shop. If Michael Fitzmaurice lived in Brazil, you would not have a bull's notion that it was me who reared that. Would that be fair to say?

I do not think it is. Frankly, our quality assurance teams work with the most reputable companies in Brazil, when they need to. They have stringent requirements insofar as quality assurance systems are concerned and very demanding timeframes.

With such quality, did Mr. Murrin ever have a meat recall in his company?

In 2008, we had a food safety incident which was nothing whatsoever to do with Brazilian beef.

I have a question for Mr. O'Toole regarding the Comptroller and Auditor General and the material level of compliance in procurement-----

The questions are to Mr. Murrin, Deputy.

Okay, I thought I could talk to them all.

As regards the percentages, Mr. Murrin talked about 1%. Does he source food from third countries for chicken? What percentage of meat in Ireland is sourced from Bord Bia quality assured farmers? That is from Bord Bia quality assured farmers, not from factories.

I would say the significant majority on the island of Ireland or equivalent. It is Bord Bia quality assured or equivalent in Northern Ireland or farm assured. I also want to come back to the audit question. I absolutely understand Irish farmers and the demands of the Bord Bia quality assurance audit. Without quality assurance, we do not have markets abroad for the products we produce as a country. Quality assurance in everything is fundamental.

At this committee two years ago, I was asked the same question. I did not have an opportunity then to explain to the committee, but I would like to briefly explain now.

I do not have that much time.

My own business in Naas-----

Briefly, Mr. Murrin because time is tight

-----undergoes an average of 50 audits a year from our customer base across the world. Those audits will be about quality assurance, food safety and Sedex. Half of those audits are two to three days in duration and a significant percentage are unannounced. The message is that quality assurance applies to us all.

Does Mr. Murrin have a gold status under Origin Green with Bord Bia?

Not at this time.

Why not? Did Mr. Murrin lose it in the past two years?

No, we did not obtain it in recent years.

Well then, let us split the difference.

I have a straight question for the witness. He has seen the debacle that has been caused in recent weeks and has said he has brought beef in from Brazil. Going forward, does he intend to keep doing the system he is doing? I note in 2020, 2021 and 2022, I could not find his contingency plan, but ironically enough, when beef was 45%, 50% and 55% dearer in Ireland or Europe than Brazil, in 2024 and 2025, that was where I was looking at 1%. Maybe I have erred in my research, but is Mr. Murrin going to continue bringing it in?

Again, there are a couple of questions there. Brazil has been on the contingency list for many of our top ten or 12 customers for a significant period. They do not have to buy from Ireland or buy Irish produce, but they do, and I have represented that in my answer regarding the amount of Irish beef we buy.

With regard to the issue of contingency going forward, I have to say that somewhere in the southern hemisphere will always be on our contingency list, and the question is accessibility. We have to be able to demonstrate that to our global customers.

My last question to Mr. Murrin-----

We need to move on to Deputy Kenny.

I thank Mr. Murrin and his colleagues for coming in. I have read the opening statements and the additional information - the Bord Bia supplementary submission - in respect of that.

One thing I was drawn to was the code of conduct for board members. In the code of conduct, it states that board members will disclose outside employment, businesses, business interests, conflicts or potential conflicts of interest to the board. When Mr. Murrin was appointed as a board member, did he disclose to the board that he was using beef products from Brazil or from outside the European Union?

Let me be clear: I am obligated to disclose under the Ethics in Public Office Act - and it is an estimate by me - for now more than 20 years, but Bord Bia will be happy to confirm that. Any other commercial involvement I have and the business model, as I referred to in an earlier question, is very well understood by the Government stakeholders that Dawn Farm Foods use.

Being honest, I am disappointed I have to say this again but, unfortunately, the realities of the global marketplace are that we would not have a global international business in the areas we have it if we were 100% dependent on Irish raw materials.

I understand.

That model does not work. It is what I call "fortress Ireland."

I understand that and in fairness, it is not my question. Did Mr. Murrin disclose he was using Brazilian beef in the circumstances-----

All my interests are fully disclosed to Bord Bia and any other State agency I may have been involved with throughout my career.

Would Mr. Murrin consider it a conflict of interest to be using beef from Brazil? We are all well aware of the research that has been done and the absence of traceability, the liberal use of antibiotics and hormones in Brazil, and the recalls that have been not just in Ireland and Europe but in other countries as well of produce that has come from Brazil. In the context of all that, does Mr. Murrin see the conflict of interest that the vast majority of people out there have shone a light on in recent weeks?

Yet it was very recently when one of the farm organisations and the IFA did a report on this, I believe in November, after everyone had attended the World Beef Congress in Brazil. As I said, I am not a champion of Brazil. It is simply a country and a contingency plan.

On the contingency plan whereby Mr. Murrin uses 1% of his beef in his products, he told us he had to do it, that it was basically a condition. That is what I am reading from what he has said so far. It is a condition of these contracts that you must have a supply chain from Brazil to tap into, in the event that something goes wrong in other countries. That seems to be-----

I absolutely understand Brazil is a flashpoint in the context of Irish agriculture today. Nobody rings Brazil today and gets a container load of beef tomorrow. All these decisions were taken well before the November issue and report that exploded into the media.

I understand from Mr. Murrin's perspective and in business that business has to be agile, and it has to be able to do what it needs to do. However, we here are in the business of political policy and ensuring we have got transparency around all these things.

In this context, a red line has been crossed from the point of view that the chair of the board of an organisation that sets out to market Irish beef and food produce around the world is also using product that is totally out of step and out of line with what not only Irish producers but European food producers have to do to step up to the mark. Does Mr. Murrin see the red line issue that we have here?

I see, if I may use the word, how sensitive it has become. It was not as sensitive prior to that, just to make this comment. Any imports from Brazil, including the poultry I referred to earlier, come in under EU legal framework regulations and that extends to Irish Department of agriculture and food regulations.

Coming back to those regulations, I know there were a number of recalls before Christmas, including by a number of companies in Ireland. My office wrote to Mr. Murrin's company asking whether Dawn Farm Foods was one of the companies involved in the recall because dangerous hormones which are banned in Europe had been found in those meats. Has Mr. Murrin or any of the companies he has been involved in been the subject of any of these recalls?

No.

Mr. Murrin saw the alarm this caused. He is aware of the alarm and the damage it caused, and this is evident for everybody. We are here to talk about the potential harm and disastrous implications that all of this could have for the Irish beef industry. This is not because of what the Irish beef industry has done wrong or due to any circumstance of the Irish beef industry. It is because of the potential for contamination from the Brazilian beef industry, which consumer and farmers in Ireland hold in very low esteem, to say the least. Can Mr. Murrin understand how we in political circles believe a red line has been crossed and that he has crossed that red line?

I am sorry but I disagree. On the fundamentals of the business that Dawn Farm Foods is - and there are other businesses in Ireland also but to speak about us for a brief moment - what we do is a little bit like making the engines for BMW, if I may draw this analogy. Everything is done in accordance with the customer's specifications and 40 million to 50 million consumers a week consume products that we make through some of the best-known brands in the world. I explained this in my opening statement. Those brands cannot afford not to have product on the shelves. Supply chain security is the number one issue, higher than price I might add.

Could I say that I do not think BMW engines would be putting in parts that have the same level of competence that beef from Brazil has, if we want to use this analogy. Certainly a lot of people would not accept that of a high-quality product, and we are talking about a mix here. Basically Mr. Murrin is telling us that he is assembling an end product, and from that end product we have to take ingredients and I understand that.

We are not assembling an end product. We are taking raw protein and putting it through complex and sophisticated processes to produce an end product in fully cooked format that is then shipped to our customer.

That fully cooked format and end product may have part of an ingredient in it, and has the potential to have contaminated beef from Brazil in it, and this is why the vast majority of people in the country feel Mr. Murrin's position is untenable. Does Mr. Murrin understand this?

I am afraid I disagree fundamentally with Deputy Kenny's analysis of the situation. I am completely aligned with the needs of Irish farming and I always have been.

I thank Mr. Murrin for his opening statement and for attending the committee. He stated he has enormous respect for Irish farmers. For many it is difficult to reconcile this statement with the strategic decision to invest so heavily in the Brazilian agricultural sector, a direct competitor operating under vastly different and much lower standards to our own farmers here in Ireland. To understand the scale and nature of this involvement I have several questions. Will Mr. Murrin provide us with a clear account of his history and involvement in establishing and operating cooked and frozen meat products in Brazil and other South American countries? Specifically, what shares and assets have he and his immediate family held in the meat and food sector in South America and what do they currently retain?

I thank Deputy Newsome Drennan for her question.

Deputy Newsome Drennan is encroaching on areas-----

It is just with the declaration of interest in the-----

-----that would be beyond the remit of the meeting and it is up to Mr. Murrin as to whether he answers.

I know that.

I am happy to answer the question and I thank Deputy Newsome Drennan for it. We have no investment in Brazil.

At the moment.

None.

Ever?

No, I did not say that. In 2005 and 2006 we formed a joint venture with a large Brazilian producer of beef in a town called Barretos in northern Brazil. This facility was built and let me explain what the objective of this facility was. We have as fine a suite of global customers as we could expect, all of whom were planning to expand into what we will call the southern hemisphere. We were encouraged by our customers to align our expertise with someone in Brazil so that we could set up a base there to supply and support their southern hemisphere expansion. For a variety of reasons, a lot of them to do with macroeconomics and things that changed in Brazil and other southern hemisphere markets-----

But not safeguards.

Pardon me?

They are so far behind us. They are decades behind us. In that time, in 20 years-----

Can I just say that in 2012 we exited that business fully. We sold our interests. We have no commercial involvement or investments in South America whatsoever. None.

Neither Mr. Murrin nor his immediate family.

Most certainly not me nor my immediate family.

In his statement Mr. Murrin said Dawn Farm Foods imported less than 1% of its beef from Brazil. He has already said that he does not want to give this percentage in metric tonnes. To ask a different question, what percent of Irish beef does Mr. Murrin use, in metric tonnes?

The vast majority. I will explain it this way. For reasons of confidentiality I cannot give specifics.

Mr. Murrin can tell me a percentage.

I will explain it this way. If we look at the top 20 global destinations for Irish beef, which are publicly available figures, and what countries Irish beef goes to, and if I take the Dawn Farm Foods purchase of Irish beef in that context and if I said that Dawn Farm Foods was a country - which of course it is not - Dawn Farm Foods would be well within the top 15 global buyers of Irish beef per those rankings.

Will Mr. Murrin provide the total tonnage of poultry imported? Did he say he does not import pork from any country outside of Europe? On pork, Mr. Murrin said he does not import it from Brazil but does he import pork from any country outside of Europe? I will also ask this question of poultry. He said he has imported poultry from Brazil but does he import it from other countries outside of Europe?

To answer the question, and please tell me if I am doing this correctly, poultry is 70% self-sufficient in this country. Our industry in poultry exports approximately 25% of its output, most of which is dark meat, such as drumsticks, wings and other chicken parts, or boneless meat. It achieves a good return for this.

My first figure was incorrect. Ireland imports 160,000 metric tonnes to satisfy demand here.

Mr. Murrin said it amounts to between 7% to 10%.

We account for between 7% and 10% of imports-----

Is that Dawn Foods?

Dawn Farm Foods.

I am sorry - Dawn Farm Foods.

It depends on demand.

Ireland is 200% self-sufficient in pork and exports more than 70% of its output. Ireland imports 80,000 metric tonnes to satisfy domestic consumption. More than half of all the pork we use is Irish and the balance comes from the UK or EU markets. We do not source pork anywhere outside the EU at this time.

If the Mercosur trade agreement is implemented, has Dawn Farm Foods a plan in place to expand its imports from the countries in question?

No.

That is fine.

Given Mr. Murrin’s extensive knowledge of South America's food sector and its documented issues with banned cancer-linked hormones and the widespread use of antibiotics, does he believe importing meat from South America harms public health? His opening statement emphasised always ensuring “continuous food supply to our customers, no matter the circumstance”. Is the use of meat that may contain banned hormones a red line for Dawn Farm Foods? Does the position of continuous supply override any concern? Is it all about profit margins at the end of the day? Does it not concern Mr. Murrin that this is a public health issue? As a mother, I do not want to feed my children food that could harm them.

I fully understand that.

We will need a really quick answer on that, please.

I have full confidence that any sourcing Dawn Farm Foods has done is fully compliant with food regulations and compliant EU and Irish regulations in the context of the products.

Does Mr. Murrin have access to the records of testing done on the meat he is importing?

I thank the Deputy. We are now due a sos of ten minutes, or shorter if Mr. Murrin is available.

I thank Mr. Murrin and his colleagues for attending. Every farming organisation and all farmers have come out and shouted: "conflict of interest" and "double standards". For transparency in the situation we are in, is Mr. Murrin aligned with, or does he give support to, any particular political party?

Am I aligned to, or do I give any support to, a political party?

A particular political party.

That is outside the remit of our meeting.

I understand the Senator's question, but, no, I am not.

The only reason I asked is that I am trying to figure out why the Government is adamant to back Mr. Murrin on this, when every farming organisation has come out and said that there is a conflict of interest. Mr. Murrin might not be able to answer this, but I am going to ask it anyway. Has he ever given a donation to a political party?

That is beyond our remit.

There is a conflict of interest here though.

I am just trying to figure out why we have our Minister of Agriculture, Food and the Marine-----

This is outside our remit and we are not entitled to ask.

There is no answer. I will just make assumptions on that going forward. Again, in the interests of transparency, and I am thinking of all the parents out there and we have school meals going into every school, are any of Mr. Murrin's businesses, or businesses he is associated with, supplying food to the school meals going into primary and secondary schools?

Not that I am aware of at this time.

How about any of the businesses that any of his family are involved with?

Not at this time.

Again, asking questions about family members is beyond our remit as well.

If Mr. Murrin is involved in any of his family's businesses or has shares in them, surely he should be able to answer questions on that.

It says that the statement should include details of any interests held by the board, spouse or members

The Deputy may ask-----

Mr. Murrin says that they do not.

It would have been part of Bord Bia. It is a conflict of interest.

They do not supply to schools. That was my question. On the imports and this 1% contingency that has been mentioned, from what I can see Dawn Farm Foods did not have any imports from 2020 to 2023. Is that correct?

We did not have any imports from Brazil in those years, principally due to Covid-19 and the geopolitical disruption that took place during those years. It was part of the logic that caused us to feel that we had to, once again, test that the contingency worked because talking about contingency is no use. As a graphic example, leaving aside raw materials, as part of the conditions of our contractual obligations with our global customers, if anything happened one of our plants in, let us say, Naas, God forbid, part of our contingency has to be that we have to demonstrate that we have dual manufacturing capability in other countries, meaning the UK or Germany in our case, that can seamlessly replicate those products without any interruptions to our global supply chains. Without contingency, Ireland would not enjoy the level of support it does from customers.

Mr. Murrin said that Dawn Farm Foods did not import for the contingency in those three years from Brazil. Did it import it from another country?

Our raw material requirements in a depressed consumer market in those years, because we do not serve retail, were principally supported from Europe.

Can this contingency be sourced from countries other than Brazil?

Pardon me?

The contingency can be brought in from anywhere. It does not have to be Brazil. The contingency that the agriculture Minister spoke to me about in the Seanad yesterday, does not have to be contaminated. It could be from other countries. It does not have to be contaminated Brazilian beef.

That question assumes that all Brazilian beef is contaminated. I said that I am not a champion for Brazil, but that is not the case.

When they are not tested or they are not tagged, we cannot guarantee that they are not all contaminated. It works both ways. We cannot prove that they all are, but we also cannot disprove it.

I am sorry. I am happy that our quality assurance systems and the high standards we set assure our customers, and, as I said earlier, our customers audit us against that standard 50 times a year.

I am going back to one of my colleague's questions on the testing of Dawn Farm Foods' imports. Is all the beef that it imports tested?

To qualify, in addition to EU and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine veterinary controls, all of our material is sourced from approved abattoirs that are supervised by the national competent authorities and are subject to strict oversight by veterinary specialists in the EU's Directorate-General for Health and Food Safety and cleared for use by the authorities within their own jurisdictions. There are robust and multifaceted layers of official controls that are in place to ensure the safety of beef, both in exporting countries and here in the EU and Ireland.

Does Dawn Farm Foods have records for the testing of all imported beef?

Absolutely.

Everything that comes in is tested. One hundred per cent of products that come into this country for Dawn Farm Foods-----

Not only is everything that might be used as raw materials tested, we protect our brand and the brands that work with us. Every single batch or shipment of product is what is called positively released to the marketplace and the customer, which is unique in the world, because we guarantee that no microbiological or related issue will arise once we deliver that product to our customers.

We are here discussing this today. All of the farming organisations say that Mr. Murrin must step down. What does he see as a resolution? Does he think that-----

I have had plenty of messages from many farmers around the country urging me to stay put and saying that the position as it is in the media currently is somewhat exaggerated.

I have nothing but empathy and understanding for Irish farming. I always have had. It is not a new habit that I found yesterday. I have been like this for the 45 years I have been in this business. So-----

Okay. Does Mr. Murrin think maybe that the farmers contacting him might be involved in a political party? We will just say it.

I really-----

I know I keep going back to this, but I think it is a conflict of interest-----

I cannot-----

-----if donations were made to a political party and if that political party is backing him?

I cannot put a context on that.

Senator, it is not-----

I would, if I were allowed to say it.

Senator, it is not a fair question.

We know that he had.

Senator, it is not a fair question.

I have proof that there are political donations, and I think it is in the interest of the public-----

Senator, it is not a fair question.

I would like to come back-----

Senator, move on to your next question.

I would like to know why the Department is backing somebody that every farming organisation is saying has a conflict of interest.

It is just strange that a Fianna Fáil Minister put him in place.

Senator, move on to your next question.

It is okay. I am not going to get the answer, so I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Cathaoirleach, may I answer the second question I was asked about what I think resolves the issue?

Please do.

As I am on record as having said at the board meeting, dialogue will resolve the issue, dialogue between myself and the farming organisations and the Minister.

I thank Mr. Murrin, and maybe a bit of transparency as well.

I call Senator Paul Daly.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I welcome the witnesses here today. Look, we have been here a long time now and we have heard a lot of talk about Brazil, but we are going around in circles on it, in my opinion. We are not going to get any more definitive information. I will just go back to two questions asked previously that I do not think we got answers for. One was whether the importation of beef is based on price. Mr. Murrin is a businessman. I have been in business myself for a long time, and it is all about the margin. Is the business based more on price than on quality?

Mr. Murrin also said earlier that his company did not have the gold standard. Why did it not get the gold standard?

So, to answer the Senator's first question, price had nothing to do with us being able to demonstrate that we could source in the southern hemisphere, in this case Brazil, if the need arose. It had nothing whatsoever to do with it. If it had, if that was the driving force, why were the tonnes not a significantly greater percentage? That is the first part of the answer. We did not achieve the gold standard because we did not make the points to achieve the gold standard.

What points did Mr. Murrin not make?

The site on which we operate holds an environmental licence from the EPA in the name of our parent company, the Arrow Group, which is a Queally family holding, and the site was placed on the priority list by the EPA, with a number of conditions attaching to it. So, the whole site actually has 1,000 people on it, of whom 700 are Dawn Farms people. I take the EPA very seriously, as do all the directors. I think members of the farming community know this as well as members of the food and drink industry. We absolutely have compliance with EPA priorities nationally as a very high important goal to achieve.

I fail to see the correlation between the EPA and the Bord Bia gold standard.

If we as a member company of Origin Green, and, in this case, our parent company, were named on a national priority site list by the EPA, we cannot achieve the gold standard.

Right, well. As I said, I am following up on that from previously. I have to get my head around it. I want to move on. We are where we are.

Yes.

As has been asked already, I was going to ask Mr. Murrin where he thinks the solution is, but he has answered that. Just as a little bit of background, though, on how we got here, this is a special meeting. We meet on a Wednesday. By virtue of the fact that the room is full, this is a big issue.

I am aware of that, Senator.

Mr. Murrin said in his opening statement that "A majority of the board supported me" at the board meeting on 22 January. Briefly, was that verbally or was there a vote of confidence or no confidence?

It was-----

It is a straight answer. Mr. Murrin does not need to talk for a minute on it.

It was verbally.

It was verbally. It was not an actual vote.

There was no vote-----

Was that-----

-----because within the confines of the corporate governance rules, which apply to Bord Bia-----

That is my next question.

-----there could not have been a vote.

Does Bord Bia have an oversight committee? Is that oversight committee happy that the fiduciary duties of board members are being adhered to here since this debacle started on 22 January?

Can I respectfully suggest that that question be referred to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? On corporate governance matters, I can say that from that standpoint-----

Does the board not look after its own corporate governance and police it and ensure it?

We absolutely do.